Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[Peter Schrager]

I think it will take a few more years before we can find Ferrania chromes available at our favourite online shops. Before someone else suggest me to leave this forum, I am not being negative, just realistic.

Berri...you ARE WELCOME HERE...PLEASE DON'T REACT TO A FEW CLOWNS!!

 

[Nzoomed]

We mustn't forget that at the present time Fuji's most expensive (and only) black and white film sells for less than 8€ per roll. I hope that p30's price is justified by being an alpha version and that the finished product will sell for 4 to 6€. I still believe that they are wasting a lot of time with this black and white film while they could be working on what they were paid for: producing a colour transparency film.

You fail to recognise that Ferrania are making colour film their #1 priority as they already have made clear.

They had to test the coater with a simple emulsion, so why not make some profit from this while they are preparing all the chemistry and sensitizers etc needed to produce colour film?

By this stage, the coater should be refined and any faults with it rectified by the time that its ready to coat the colour film.

At the same time, Ferrania is making some profit for a chance by selling a B&W film.

 

[Berri]

so why not make some profit from this while they are preparing all the chemistry and sensitizers etc needed to produce colour film?

Because this will force them to delay their #1 priority, colour reversal film. This is even more dangerous now that Kodak is bringing ektachrome back.

 

[Berri]

As I said in my previous posts, I do know that they had to test bw emulsion before they could move forward to more specific tests on colour reversal, but I don't think it is the right attitude to say "hey, do you know what, we could sell this an make some money just in case!" They are just a small team and I see this as a waste of resources that will force them to reschedule everything once again. Perhaps they had to do so because they can't afford to continue the r&d of chromes otherwise.

That being said, this whole P30 thing is a good stepping stone into the market and I can't wait to see the results people get with different developers. Unfortunately I mostly do colours and medium format so I'll have to wait a bit longer before I can enjoy the Italian chromes

 

[MattKing]

At least the P30 has given them a chance to work out the kinks in their web store....

 

[Oxleyroad]

At least the P30 has given them a chance to work out the kinks in their web store....

+1

 

[Photo Engineer]

Berri, the route to good color is via B&W. Why waste a good B&W coating when they can make a few euros on it? In the trash bin it does nothing, in your hands it might be a beautiful picture.

PE

 

[mshchem]

I'm certain that a big part of what Kodak is doing is learning how to make Ektachrome with an entirely different supplier landscape. The chemical, plastics, paint etc. industry has changed dramatically in the last 15 years. Bayer, GE, BASF, ICI, DuPont and a lot of others, have spun off basic chemicals. All the changes mean dealing with qualification of new suppliers, in many cases now, off shore. I have a stash of some Kodak sundries, try to find sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate crystals as pretty and clean as the old Kodak.
I suspect that the folks in Rochester may have some pretty spectacular new ideas of their own as well.

I think what Film Ferrania has accomplished is nothing short of a miracle. A steady revenue stream is the greatest factor in surviving to fulfill the dream of motion picture and still film. Hopefully it is a product that has a flavor all it's own. Anything that increases the use of E6 will help insure business for everyone.
I'm hoping by Christmas I have both Ferrania and Kodak E6 offerings under my tree.
Best Regards Mike

 

[Nzoomed]

Because this will force them to delay their #1 priority, colour reversal film. This is even more dangerous now that Kodak is bringing ektachrome back.

You are not paying attention to any of the Ferrania videos and kickstarter updates.
See this here:
Dead Link Removed

Ivano is their only person capable who is currently employed that can make the correct sensitizers and chemistry etc.

He is busy working away at making the components for the colour emulsion.
Some of these sensitizers take weeks to prepare, and the colour film uses several of them.

The P30 alpha program is putting the coater through its paces and will show up any faults, which is good because if a colour batch was made there may be lots of flaws that have not come to surface as we have already seen, so getting tons of people shooting the P30 as guinea pigs will only help speed up the testing phase of the coater as any problems will soon be reported and rectified when the colour emulsion is all prepared.


Im sure Dave Bias will be able to back me up here

 

[Agulliver]

You are not paying attention to any of the Ferrania videos and kickstarter updates.
See this here:
Dead Link Removed

Ivano is their only person capable who is currently employed that can make the correct sensitizers and chemistry etc.

He is busy working away at making the components for the colour emulsion.
Some of these sensitizers take weeks to prepare, and the colour film uses several of them.

The P30 alpha program is putting the coater through its paces and will show up any faults, which is good because if a colour batch was made there may be lots of flaws that have not come to surface as we have already seen, so getting tons of people shooting the P30 as guinea pigs will only help speed up the testing phase of the coater as any problems will soon be reported and rectified when the colour emulsion is all prepared.


Im sure Dave Bias will be able to back me up here

Yes....this...

Honestly people, read the updates from Film Ferrania. All the information you need is there. It has all been released before. Ferrania have been very clear about the processes they have to go through in order to end up with a viable E6 film. And they are precisely following their revised plan...the plan put in place after their window of opportunity to make the kickstarter rewards from the old 3M chemicals disappeared.

I would also hazard a guess that funds are now low, and the sale of P30 Alpha will help fill the coffers to enable them to better progress on the E6 programme.

 

[Berri]

You are not paying attention to any of the Ferrania videos and kickstarter updates.
See this here:

I am though, the thing is that I am not so optimistic. All I'm saying is that it will take a long time to produce transparency film, more than what they make it sound like.

 

[TheToadMen]

Because this will force them to delay their #1 priority, colour reversal film. This is even more dangerous now that Kodak is bringing ektachrome back.

If .. if Kodak would release a new colour reversal film before Ferrania can start producing & selling, then Ferrania might have a PR problem indeed and loose momentum in the market.
So it would be nice for Ferrania to be able to announce and sell before Kodak can ....

 

[afriman]

I am though, the thing is that I am not so optimistic. All I'm saying is that it will take a long time to produce transparency film, more than what they make it sound like.

One can fully understand their excitement and optimism. It's great that their morale is high. But they need to be cautious with their predictions. With a project as complex and difficult as this, it's simply sensible practice to make ample allowance for unforeseen setbacks.

 

[afriman]

If .. if Kodak would release a new colour reversal film before Ferrania can start producing & selling, then Ferrania might have a PR problem indeed and loose momentum in the market.
So it would be nice for Ferrania to be able to announce and sell before Kodak can ....

It will be worse PR if they keep making over-optimistic announcements, create anticipation and then fail to deliver.

 

[Agulliver]

I don't see a PR issue. Remember...ultimately we here at APUG are not the full intended market. The people who Film Ferrania hope will be buying their product mostly don't even know about it yet. We here have been following .

As far as the wider public goes...there has been no PR. E6 slide film is a niche market and I am sure a lot of potential shooters *are* here on APUG and similar...but not the majority. What they'll see is another option enter the market, and learn the story behind the rebirth of Ferrania anew. No major announcements are going to be made until they're sure their product is good and ready.

In the meantime we will buy and test Alpha films...as I am sure there will be an Alpha E6 product at some point.

Remember the saying..."There's many a slip between cup and lip".

 

[Richard Eaton]

I wonder what the potential market for E6 films really is ? There's undoubtedly a niche market amoungst the older age group (like myself) who can remember family slide shows and the time when pre-digital colour printing was expensive and time-consuming. But transparencies are no longer the preferred source for magazine and publishing generally, so I can't see much, if any, new demand from professionals. It may be difficult to give new or younger analog users any good reason to take slides as compared with B&W or color negs ? And, finally, the question of ongoing viable and reliable E6 labs ? Not everyone is happy with the idea of home processing, and potentially using what are seen as nasty chemicals in a household environment.

I know the economic and technical reasons suggested as to why Kodak discontinued Kodachrome, but the fact is that the film was iconic, a name well known to photographers and most other people, readily available in many shops, yet, in the end, the demand was not there. I know that Ferrania are relying on a scaling-down of the level of production, but will the demand be there.....P30 seems to be selling fast, but is this temporary interest from just we enthusiasts who can't resist trying a new film ? Are those of us who have used Ilford (or Kodak, or Fuji) films since the days of the School Camera Club and are used to every querk of these products, going to change suppliers just-for-the-sake-of it ?

IDK the answers.

 

[Brady Eklund]

E6 is valuable for a variety of niches. Color motion-picture film is one of them. Stereo photography on the old stereo slide cameras. Normal 35mm slides. Larger format transparencies. With printing being almost entirely digital these days anyway, there's no disadvantage compared with color negative film(processing availability aside) for normal use and you have the added benefit of the film itself being a finished product so to speak. That collection of niches should be enough to justify someone continuing to produce color slide film, even if demand in all of those areas will ultimately decline. Whether it's enough to support three companies making it is another question.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

With printing being almost entirely digital these days anyway, there's no disadvantage compared with color negative film(processing availability aside) for normal use and you have the added benefit of the film itself being a finished product so to speak.

An interesting point that I haven't seen others make.

 

[Berri]

With printing being almost entirely digital these days anyway, there's no disadvantage compared with color negative film

TRue, but sad; printing colour film in the darkroom is fun and easy! And the results ar MUCH better than digital prints!

 

[Agulliver]

If you don't wish to use nasty chemicals in the home.....throw away all your cleaning products and never, ever unblock your drains.

The folk behind Film Ferrania reckon that the film market has stabilised, and that a smaller manufacturer which is able to be flexible and produce various products in small/medium volumes is in a great place to operate in the current and future market.

Today, E6 slide film is perhaps more practical than 20 years ago. It's a bit easier/cheaper to home process than C41. Printing is mostly digital these days (I know....I know...) so with reversal film you have the possibility of direct viewing of the positive image, slide projection, scan/print and scan/upload/publish. It's also great for 8 and 16mm motion picture film, and some might still use 35mm motion picture reversal film.

There's a market, and it is probably no longer shrinking. When the market for E6 film pretty much imploded during the 2000's, large companies weren't really able to quickly downscale...leaving just Fuji eventually. What Kodak can do in it's current guise, and Film Ferrania can do, is profitably make smaller runs of such products.

 

[Nzoomed]

I wonder what the potential market for E6 films really is ? There's undoubtedly a niche market amoungst the older age group (like myself) who can remember family slide shows and the time when pre-digital colour printing was expensive and time-consuming. But transparencies are no longer the preferred source for magazine and publishing generally, so I can't see much, if any, new demand from professionals. It may be difficult to give new or younger analog users any good reason to take slides as compared with B&W or color negs ? And, finally, the question of ongoing viable and reliable E6 labs ? Not everyone is happy with the idea of home processing, and potentially using what are seen as nasty chemicals in a household environment.

I know the economic and technical reasons suggested as to why Kodak discontinued Kodachrome, but the fact is that the film was iconic, a name well known to photographers and most other people, readily available in many shops, yet, in the end, the demand was not there. I know that Ferrania are relying on a scaling-down of the level of production, but will the demand be there.....P30 seems to be selling fast, but is this temporary interest from just we enthusiasts who can't resist trying a new film ? Are those of us who have used Ilford (or Kodak, or Fuji) films since the days of the School Camera Club and are used to every querk of these products, going to change suppliers just-for-the-sake-of it ?

IDK the answers.

Im new to shooting slide film and have never done it to make slides.
I like looking at the film strips over a light table and it also has a unique feel to the image that ive never had with c41 films.

 

[1L6E6VHF]

<snip>

I know the economic and technical reasons suggested as to why Kodak discontinued Kodachrome, but the fact is that the film was iconic, a name well known to photographers and most other people, readily available in many shops, yet, in the end, the demand was not there. <snip>

Really, toward the end, Kodachrome products were not readily available, certainly not at local brick-and-mortar stores.

Remember in that era, Fujifilm and Kodak were bringing new emulsions out almost monthly. Each of these, Reala, Ektachrome Elite 50, Superia 100, Gold Max, Acros, T-Max 3200, Astia, Lumiere.....APS film format....single use cameras...all needed a peg on the pegboard.

126 size, tungsten-balanced slide film, Panatomic-X, Kodachrome 25 and eventually Kodachrome 64 would lose their space to make way for the youngsters

 

[Richard Eaton]

If you don't wish to use nasty chemicals in the home.....throw away all your cleaning products and never, ever unblock your drains.
.

Of course.....and petrol/gasoline isn't all that nice either. However people are familiar with regular "household" chemicals and (hopefully) how to handle them, but what I said was that unfamiliar photographic chemicals might be perceived as something which doesn't belong in a household environment. Not logical, I know, but since when are human beings logical.

 

[Richard Eaton]

Really, toward the end, Kodachrome products were not readily available, certainly not at local brick-and-mortar stores.

Remember in that era, Fujifilm and Kodak were bringing new emulsions out almost monthly. Each of these, Reala, Ektachrome Elite 50, Superia 100, Gold Max, Acros, T-Max 3200, Astia, Lumiere.....APS film format....single use cameras...all needed a peg on the pegboard.

126 size, tungsten-balanced slide film, Panatomic-X, Kodachrome 25 and eventually Kodachrome 64 would lose their space to make way for the youngsters

If I'm correct, all but two of those new emulsions (and a few single-use cameras) have also disappeared through lack of buyers.

 

[Berri]

something which doesn't belong in a household environment.

I wouldn't store C41 in the cupboard among the other useful kitchen stuff, like acetic acid, sodium hydrogen carbonate, glycerol triesters, or the scariest (2R,3R,4S,5S,6R)-2-[(2S,3S,4S,5R)-3,4-dihydroxy-2,5-bis(hydroxymethyl)oxolan-2-yl]oxy-6-(hydroxymethyl)oxane-3,4,5-triol aka sugar.