Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

Berri · Mar 17, 2017

Richard Eaton said:
So does that mean that they have been forced to abandon the batch of E6 (Scotchchrome type) using the old chemicals, and now have to start again by reformulating their own E6 film ? I could understand the reasons for that, but wonder just how long it will now take, particularly if they get a large number of orders for the P30 and decide to divert resources to meet that demand. (And, in the meantime, Kodak are possibly getting ready to bring back Ektachrome within a matter of months ? IDK ? )

you understand it right. They have to reformulate colour reversal film from scratch, and it is my understanding that it is a lot more complicated than coating a single layer of black and white emulsion. My concern is that they will need years of research and reformulation to achive their goal. It's not just getting the recipie out of a an old book found inside the LRF, in the meantime healt&safety laws changed, products once available might not be on the market so they have to do a lot of R&D before they could come with a "alpha" colour reversal film. This worries me a bit.

pentaxuser · Mar 17, 2017

Berri said:
We mustn't forget that at the present time Fuji's most expensive (and only) black and white film sells for less than 8€ per roll. I hope that p30's price is justified by being an alpha version and that the finished product will sell for 4 to 6€.

I haven't seen the results of this new P30 which is, as I understand it, a 1950s kind of film but on that basis isn't it likely to be the equivalent of say Ilford HP3 which was of similar vintage?

It may of course come down in price, let's hope so, but if Ilford were to announce that it has decided to re-introduce HP3 would we be happy to pay similar amount?

pentaxuser

flavio81 · Mar 17, 2017

Agulliver said:
But that all went to pot when all the troubles getting the LRF up and running in 2016 happened....they had reckoned on a short window where they had power etc. and could do that one last run with the old chemicals. That was taken away from them and from that moment the order of play was changed.

The small time window was small due to the need to release the "first batch" films according to their initial plan.
It was not due to their chemicals expiring.

After all those troubles they examined the chemical supplies they have and they discovered they can use most of it after submitting them through a 'purification' process. They have a video on this.

However, they decided that the best route is to make their own. This, of course, because the Ferrania plans are not for producing one batch but for producing E6 films for all the years to come.

Agulliver · Mar 17, 2017

I believe the plan was never to release a product to the public from the 3M chemicals. They were always going to formulate their own E6 film after making the kickstarter rewards. It might be somewhat based on Scotch Chrome but the left over chemistry/equipment was only ever going to be used for the rewards.

So they were always going to start anew, make tests with B&W film and then start to make colour.

They have made this abundantly clear in their regular updates on the website, facebook and email newsletters.

If you haven't read this, its' really not Film Ferrania's fault that you have totally unrealistic ideas of what they are doing and when they might complete it.

Once that window of opportunity to manufacture the Kickstarter rewards in 2016 disappeared due to circumstances completely beyond their control, the game changed somewhat. Again, they have made it clear...I fail to see how it could be more clear.

All the shouting about people feeling wronged....is it simply because said people are not actually aware of what the guys at Ferrania are doing?

Agulliver · Mar 17, 2017

flavio81 said:
The small time window was small due to the need to release the "first batch" films according to their initial plan.
It was not due to their chemicals expiring.

After all those troubles they examined the chemical supplies they have and they discovered they can use most of it after submitting them through a 'purification' process. They have a video on this.

However, they decided that the best route is to make their own. This, of course, because the Ferrania plans are not for producing one batch but for producing E6 films for all the years to come.

Yes I think that sums it up slightly better than I did.

The chemicals are still viable, with some purification/filtration, but they were only intended to be used for the kickstarter rewards...not for the final product.

The final plan was always to make their own film, and not to bring one batch of Scotch Chrome to the market.

flavio81 · Mar 17, 2017

Berri said:
Years later we are still waiting for chromes and they waste (my opinion) time on black and white. These are the facts, then you can make whichever novel suits you best out of it

How difficult is to understand that for manufacturing a color film you first have to test the black and white layers of the film?

Berri said:
you understand it right. They have to reformulate colour reversal film from scratch, and it is my understanding that it is a lot more complicated than coating a single layer of black and white emulsion.

Source of this information? It is only your guess, not a fact.

Berri said:
My concern is that they will need years of research and reformulation to achive their goal. It's not just getting the recipie out of a an old book found inside the LRF, in the meantime healt&safety laws changed

Source of this information? Again, it is your guess. You are claiming, out of nowhere, that the formulas for Imation Chrome 100 will not be usable because 'health&safety laws have changed'. Yet, for example this is the same that some people said about the Kodachrome films and process -- "they can't be made because they won't comply with current health and safety standards", and Photo Engineer has proved them wrong.

Last time Ferrania made reversal film, wasn't in the 1980s or the 1970s. It was the early 2000s. I can bet the films and formulation has no problem complying current rules and regulations.

If they weren't able to comply with such regulations they would have known this from the start, before creating the Kickstarter. Corrado Balestra would have known and told them.

What the Ferrania team has said is that they will make a re-engineered version of Imation Chrome 200. This is not the same as "starting from scratch". The reason they need to reengineer, if i have learned correctly from all of Photo Engineer's posts, is that the film is going to be coated in a different coater than the original. Original coater = Big Boy. New coater = Modified LRC coater. And this always requires adjustments to the emulsion, etc.

It is NOT the same as starting from scratch.

Frankly, i don't understand your pessimism. I see all this chronology of events from Ferrania as a typical engineering project -- there are setbacks, but this doesn't mean we'll have to wait an eternity or that they have abandoned the idea of making an E6 film. As I said before, the setbacks were due to external factors; they have the people, the chemicals, the triacetate base rolls, the coater, the building, the spectrometers, the formulas, the patents, the packaging machines... why couldn't they make the film?

miha · Mar 17, 2017

flavio81 said:
I'm not sure; i think someone on apug recently posted info from an interview to the Fuji CEO or film VP, and he said something like 14% of sales was film (not including Instax).

It's 1%.

Berri · Mar 17, 2017

flavio81 said:
How difficult is to understand that for manufacturing a color film you first have to test the black and white layers of the film?

Not difficult at all. Maybe I didn't express myself well. Testing black and white emulsion is one thing, using resurces to atually produce a BW film is a lot different.

flavio81 said:
Source of this information?

It is very probable that chemical compounds used in the old schotch chrome cannot longer be used because of enviromental and healt&safety regulamentation, infact even Kodak said that about the Ektachrome that was discontinued just 5 years ago.

flavio81 said:
"they can't be made because they won't comply with current health and safety standards",

never said such a thing. it is a lot different saying something "can't be done" and saying it will take time to reformulate the product.
perhaps these are just my opinion. time will tell.

Berri · Mar 17, 2017

flavio81 said:
Last time Ferrania made reversal film, wasn't in the 1980s or the 1970s. It was the early 2000s.

last time kodak made ektachrome was 2012, now they have to reformulate it.

the source:
"The R&D work that is taking place at this point is focused in two primary areas. The first area of focus is on maintaining availability of material components (e.g. accrediting new suppliers as necessary and/or reformulation to maintain compliance with changing Environment, Health and Safety (EH&S) regulations)."
kodak alaris

from http://emulsive.org/articles/commun...kodak-alaris-community-interview-results-time

and "“The Ektachrome announcement is an example of this process. The reintroduction of an emulsion is not as simple as you may think, as there may be significant R&D efforts necessary to reformulate the product based upon component availability, equipment changes that may have been made over the years and any changes to EH&S [Environmental Health and Safety] regulations.”

from Dead Link Removed

when I used to work in a lab doing QC on pigments used in dyes for plastic we had reformulate dyes every now and again because of these problems, it is a common thing in the chemical industry

Brady Eklund · Mar 17, 2017

Nzoomed said:
I think Fuji will be the one that suffers the most.

The owner of the lab I get my slides processed at (his business is mostly just E-6 developing) told me that Fuji had already shut down their production lines for their slide film and are just selling off old stock. When they run out they'll fire the lines up again, make a few batches, and shut down again, probably raising the price as much as necessary to sustain that kind of operation, but leaving it very vulnerable to the ax if they decide it isn't worth it. This is why the return of Ektachrome has me worried that it will lead to Fuji pulling out of E-6 altogether, it's also why I like the idea of Ferrania's project so much. Their LRF coater is right-sized to current market demand, and they should be able to keep such an operation running indefinitely at that smaller scale without having to push the price up to $15-20 a roll. Kodak may have equipment that allows them to adopt a similar strategy with Ektachrome, but I don't really have any information about what their production situation looks like. They're also a much more diversified business and could pull out of the market as quickly as they reentered it. Kodak's decision to resume production of Ektachrome may have been made with the intention to push Fuji out of this market segment. I rather doubt they are majorly concerned about competition from Ferrania, even in the long-term.

Not sure how much credence to give the rumor about Fuji shutting down it's slide film production, but it's an interesting point in the conversation nevertheless.

Berri · Mar 17, 2017

Brady Eklund said:
Not sure how much credence to give the rumor about Fuji shutting down it's slide film production, but it's an interesting point in the conversation nevertheless.

I guess it depends on the sales and the profit they can make out of it. I really like colour transparency film myself, but to be honest I hardly shoot it these days, only when I go out on holiday somewhere (which is rare as well)

flavio81 · Mar 17, 2017

Brady Eklund said:
The owner of the lab I get my slides processed at (his business is mostly just E-6 developing) told me that Fuji had already shut down their production lines for their slide film and are just selling off old stock.

Well, on two professional labs in Lima, three years ago:
- one lab owner told me that Kodak "was not making any B/W film anymore" (false)
- another told me something similar about some Fuji films that indeed are still in production (i.e. Superia 800, 1600)

Richard Eaton · Mar 17, 2017

pentaxuser said:
I haven't seen the results of this new P30 which is, as I understand it, a 1950s kind of film but on that basis isn't it likely to be the equivalent of say Ilford HP3 which was of similar vintage?

It may of course come down in price, let's hope so, but if Ilford were to announce that it has decided to re-introduce HP3 would we be happy to pay similar amount?

pentaxuser

If Ilford really did produce a batch of original HP3, I might buy a roll, but it would be pure nostalgia, simply because it was the first type of quality film (after basic Verichrome and Selochrome) which I was introduced to when I became interested in photography. OTOH, I probably wouldn't bother....I've still enough to do to improve my skills using modern films !

Richard Eaton · Mar 17, 2017

Berri said:
I guess it depends on the sales and the profit they can make out of it. I really like colour transparency film myself, but to be honest I hardly shoot it these days, only when I go out on holiday somewhere (which is rare as well)

Just been checking two films received back from the lab today, both taken in the same camera of a variety of similar "holiday" type subjects and scenes (London, etc.) in a mix of weather and light, some good and some bad. The E6 slides (fresh Fuji film from a reliable lab) are almost all a bit "mehhh", quite gloomy, to be honest, I'd have to say disappointing The second film (AgfaPhoto Vista 100, £1 per roll !) are 36 (technically) perfect record prints, nice natural colours in both sun and dull light.

My wife commented (not for the first time) "Don't know why you still mess around with slides these days, I suppose you'll have to disappear for the evening now to scan them and print them before we get to see any real pictures".

Berri · Mar 17, 2017

Richard Eaton said:
Just been checking two films received back from the lab today, both taken in the same camera of a variety of similar "holiday" type subjects and scenes (London, etc.) in a mix of weather and light, some good and some bad. The E6 slides (fresh Fuji film from a reliable lab) are almost all a bit "mehhh", quite gloomy, to be honest, I'd have to say disappointing The second film (AgfaPhoto Vista 100, £1 per roll !) are 36 (technically) perfect record prints, nice natural colours in both sun and dull light.

My wife commented (not for the first time) "Don't know why you still mess around with slides these days, I suppose you'll have to disappear for the evening now to scan them and print them before we get to see any real pictures".

As you probably know you have to take extra care where xposing chromes, sometimes "mehhh" results are because of that. I am really fond of my memories recorded on slides and I will never scann or print most of them (I have quite a lot in 35mm) but once in a while I like projectim them with a glass of wine and see how I got old and try to figure out what place was that one or where the hell is that shirt I were in a photo...that is what I like about chromes, they are a finished product straight after being processed. basically chromes are my digital photography!

Brady Eklund · Mar 17, 2017

I pretty much only shoot on E6 for stereo slides, which is a medium I absolutely love. I took my Realist to Europe last fall and came back with some awesome results. I've also 'inherited' a couple of large collections that are pretty cool. Now if the lab I work at gets E6 processing going again I'd shoot a lot more 120 transparencies and there'd be no disadvantage when it comes to my workflow compared with C41(apart from processing being slightly more involved).

Richard Eaton · Mar 17, 2017

Berri said:
As you probably know you have to take extra care where xposing chromes, sometimes "mehhh" results are because of that. I am really fond of my memories recorded on slides and I will never scann or print most of them (I have quite a lot in 35mm) but once in a while I like projectim them with a glass of wine and see how I got old and try to figure out what place was that one or where the hell is that shirt I were in a photo...that is what I like about chromes, they are a finished product straight after being processed. basically chromes are my digital photography!

I'm actually quite well experienced in taking chromes (I have around around 30,000, 35mm and larger format, even dating back to the Kodachrome II and "High Speed Ektachrome" (160ASA!) days), but, as you say, they need accurate exposure, also, particularly, suitable lighting and generally ideal conditions for best results. Not always possible when the prime requirement is recording a picture regardless of conditions, perhaps of somewhere or something you may never see again. Which is why I now take many fewer slides, and only where it is a potential subject where I believe it is worthwhile spending time and effort seeking that ever-elusive masterpiece.

I can see why my wife likes paper prints, rather than squinting at slides....guess I'm just pleased that she still prefers real prints to squinting at pictures on a tiny LCD camera screen. We were with friends a few days ago, who asked if I wanted to see their holiday photos......we were shown about 300 pictures of Paris in about 5 minutes on a tiny mobile phone !

Diapositivo · Mar 17, 2017

Alessandro Serrao said:
I'm italian and it's funny (in a sad sense) seeing how non italians react positively to all the broken promises (as of today) by Ferrania.
It's cristal clear that only italians know how things go in this otherwise beautiful country (and not so beautiful italians).

Ehi, talk about yourself! I'm as beautiful as a 50 years old angel

Diapositivo · Mar 17, 2017

Agulliver said:
Everybody has 20/20 hindsight. I am sure they really thought they'd make the latest deadline. But we're not talking about a tried and tested process here. They are producing a brand new film (something NOBODY else in the world is doing) using reclaimed machinery with a crew of just a few people. It's far from a turn-key operation and there are many unknown quantities.

I doff my metaphorical hat to them.

I feel the same.
Some people express criticism that would be perfectly legitimate for a well-established business, with a well-established customer base relying on them etc.
But here we have a bunch of people who had an enormous amount of imagination, stubbornness, initiative and courage, and they have performed what I consider to be half a miracle or three-quarters of it, although I imagine that, after the fact, everybody will say "I could do it myself", aren't we photographers*?

People following this mad endeavour know that we are not in front of a mature business here, but in front of something which is just transitioning from the "bet" phase to "reality". People working at this endeavour remain 6.

Yes, I agree that there was no need to set counters. But I understand also that this is like a counter for a missile launch, or an Everest expedition. Too cold? Too much snow? Too wind? The expedition remains in the tents.
There is, presently, no customer who can really say they are counting on deadlines to be respected.

I don't think this kind of communication mistake can be compared to other business situations where other business might actually rely on your timely delivery. It's a kickstarter project turning into, so far, a micro-enterprise. We cannot expect to know better than them on whether to setup a distribution network or an on-line shop first.

Put the thing in this particular context and you'll be less upset

And yes: the counters are always a mistake. Ferrania please avoid that.

That said, these guys are my heroes and I find their performance, overall, absolutely astonishing.

* You know the joke: how many photographers are needed to screw a lamp? Fifty. One screws the lamp and the others say "I could do that myself".

Sal Santamaura · Mar 17, 2017

Agulliver said:
...They are producing a brand new film (something NOBODY else in the world is doing)...

Incorrect. Eastman Kodak is doing the same thing. It has announced plans to call its brand new film "Ektachrome."

Agulliver · Mar 19, 2017

Sal Santamaura said:
Incorrect. Eastman Kodak is doing the same thing. It has announced plans to call its brand new film "Ektachrome."

Kodak is reformulating an existing product that they made less than 5 years ago.

railwayman3 · Mar 19, 2017

Agulliver said:
Kodak is reformulating an existing product that they made less than 5 years ago.

I think that the point is that both Ferrania and Kodak are both reformulating a previously existing product......the basics of any E6 film are bound to be similar, but, as others have suggested, there may well have been changes in such matters as chemical availability and health and safety matters since the respective products were previously made. The difference is perhaps that Kodak have only to look back less than 5 years and have the existing plant, funds and resources available to market the film relative quickly, while Ferrania have to go back some 15 years and have the numerous limitations to work through. Just an observation, no criticism of anybody.

Sal Santamaura · Mar 19, 2017

railwayman3 said:
I think that the point is that both Ferrania and Kodak are both reformulating a previously existing product...

Precisely.

klownshed · Mar 19, 2017

Also bear in mind that Kodak haven't stopped making all film since they stopped E6. They still make B&W and colour negative film. That's got to be a significant head start.

Berri · Mar 19, 2017

I think it will take a few more years before we can find Ferrania chromes available at our favourite online shops. Before someone else suggest me to leave this forum, I am not being negative, just realistic.

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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