Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

Brady Eklund · Mar 16, 2017

flavio81 said:
Yes but it is not a business case because K14 could only be processed at one or two places in the world, while you can develop E6 films at home. Also, many K14 users moved to E6 films.

This is why I want to yell at people who want Kodachrome brought back. The stuff releases poisonous gasses when it's processed. Basically only Kodak processed it and it was a way for them to corner the market on processing, one of many slimy business practices Kodak was involved in back in the day. If you want film to survive you need the labs to survive, and a product like Kodachrome would take a big chunk of processing business away from few labs out there still processing slide film. E-6 film is really very good. Honestly the E-6 process is itself not ideal for the state of the market today, as it's most suited to a higher-volume replenishment process than most labs can support with today's demand. Of course no one is talking about developing a new chemical process for slide film that works well for small batches and never goes bad...

Photo Engineer · Mar 16, 2017

Brady, Kodachrome processing releases no poisonous gasses. Wherever did you get that idea. I would love to know.

PE

removed-user-1 · Mar 16, 2017

Just stepping back into this thread to report that I finally got the shop to show up for me. What I had to do was reboot my entire system, that is, the PC, the router, and the cable modem. After that, it worked fine. So, if you're still having trouble getting logged in, try a complete reboot of your network.

They sent me an order confirmation email. I bought five rolls for a grand total of $33.50 US, including standard shipping. I think that's a reasonable price.

Berri · Mar 16, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Brady, Kodachrome processing releases no poisonous gasses. Wherever did you get that idea. I would love to know.

PE

PE I read on a book that there once was a kodak film that could be used both as a negative or a positive film, what was it? And how could this be? Why don't they make something like that, I think it would be great for today's market!

Brady Eklund · Mar 16, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Brady, Kodachrome processing releases no poisonous gasses. Wherever did you get that idea. I would love to know.

PE

Yeah, sorry about that mistake, a customer brought in a bunch of old rolls of film, including some Kodachrome and some other obscure old processes a while back. I looked them up and one of them released poisonous gasses during development(or maybe just cross-processing?). For some reason I associated that factoid with Kodachrome. Now I'm kicking myself for not being able to remember what that process actually was. Did the earlier K-11 or K12 processes release any volatile gasses? Maybe it was early Ektachrome?

Anyway I too was a little annoyed that the site wasn't prepared for what would obviously be a big rush of traffic at launch. I happened to check back shortly after they got the store back up and I ordered 5 rolls without the discount at $8.50 each. Not cheap, but not crazy expensive either. I'm just happy to be able to support this project. I was order 9xxx-something. If everyone before me ordered 5 rolls and they started at 0, and they can only produce around 8000 a week, it could be a few months before I get my film . I'm willing to be patient though. The weather's much nicer for shooting that time of year anyway. I just hope they haven't underestimated their demand and will have enough capacity to produce multiple emulsions at once.

flavio81 · Mar 16, 2017

Berri said:
PE I read on a book that there once was a kodak film that could be used both as a negative or a positive film, what was it? And how could this be? Why don't they make something like that, I think it would be great for today's market!

There is such a film -- Tmax 100 can be processed both as negative or positive.
In reality any film can be inverted, even color films, but the problem is the quality of the result you get. Because reversal films are supposed to be higher in contrast than negative films. And non-masked, of course.

Perhaps you are thinking of Seattle Film Works? That was a lab that offered customers to use movie negative film, which they processed as a negative and then used movie print film to produce slides from it. In that way they got good negatives and positives from the same film.

The Kodak film you refer is Kodak NTN-1, this film is a special negative/positive film in which the DIAR couplers have been modified in their coupler and dye molecular structure. Besides the special core-shell large-aspect ratio of the emulsion's film grains, the couplers use a novel "supercazzola" molecular structure with escapement to the right. Emulsions are mixed within a Turboencabulator supplied by General Electric. This invention was made possible by the discovery of Antani's theorem in 1991.

Berri · Mar 16, 2017

flavio81 said:
There is such a film -- Tmax 100 can be processed both as negative or positive.
In reality any film can be inverted, even color films, but the problem is the quality of the result you get. Because reversal films are supposed to be higher in contrast than negative films. And non-masked, of course.

Perhaps you are thinking of Seattle Film Works? That was a lab that offered customers to use movie negative film, which they processed as a negative and then used movie print film to produce slides from it. In that way they got good negatives and positives from the same film.

The Kodak film you refer is Kodak NTN-1, this film is a special negative/positive film in which the DIAR couplers have been modified in their coupler and dye molecular structure. Besides the special core-shell large-aspect ratio of the emulsion's film grains, the couplers use a novel "supercazzola" molecular structure with escapement to the right. Emulsions are mixed within a Turboencabulator supplied by General Electric. This invention was made possible by the discovery of Antani's theorem in 1991.

ahahah! You got it!
love the "escapment to the right"!

afriman · Mar 16, 2017

flavio81 said:
The Kodak film you refer is Kodak NTN-1, this film is a special negative/positive film in which the DIAR couplers have been modified in their coupler and dye molecular structure. Besides the special core-shell large-aspect ratio of the emulsion's film grains, the couplers use a novel "supercazzola" molecular structure with escapement to the right. Emulsions are mixed within a Turboencabulator supplied by General Electric. This invention was made possible by the discovery of Antani's theorem in 1991.

It's not quite April 1st yet!

Berri · Mar 16, 2017

Redfox61 said:
It's not quite April 1st yet!

we're getting there!

rbultman · Mar 16, 2017

I backed them on KS, then I bought 5 alpha rolls today. My only regret is that I can't get the alpha p-30 in 120! Oh, I got the t-shirts too.

Keep going Ferrania. It's been a fun story so far, delays and all. Thanks for keeping us up to date with the videos and for your responses on this forum, Dave.

Photo Engineer · Mar 16, 2017

This whole thread has been in April since the start!

There were no color films intended to be negative or positive, but the emulsions used could be both if the products using them were formulated that way. I've described this many times before.

No films released gasses, but some processes smelled due to formaldehyde or succinaldehyde or whatever hardener was used, and t-Butyl Amine Borane was used as the reversing agent for E4 films.

PE

Brady Eklund · Mar 16, 2017

flavio81 said:
There is such a film -- Tmax 100 can be processed both as negative or positive.
In reality any film can be inverted, even color films, but the problem is the quality of the result you get. Because reversal films are supposed to be higher in contrast than negative films. And non-masked, of course.

Perhaps you are thinking of Seattle Film Works? That was a lab that offered customers to use movie negative film, which they processed as a negative and then used movie print film to produce slides from it. In that way they got good negatives and positives from the same film.

The Kodak film you refer is Kodak NTN-1, this film is a special negative/positive film in which the DIAR couplers have been modified in their coupler and dye molecular structure. Besides the special core-shell large-aspect ratio of the emulsion's film grains, the couplers use a novel "supercazzola" molecular structure with escapement to the right. Emulsions are mixed within a Turboencabulator supplied by General Electric. This invention was made possible by the discovery of Antani's theorem in 1991.

Despite Kodak's claims to the contrary, I never was able to eliminate the side-fumbling of the marzel vanes.

Prest_400 · Mar 16, 2017

Brady Eklund said:
ome other obscure old processes a while back. I looked them up and one of them released poisonous gasses during development

Maybe you were thinking about Daguerrotype which involved some mercury vapours IIRC.

I think we got enough toxic fumes around here anyways.

Nzoomed · Mar 16, 2017

keenmaster486 said:
I will definitely order a roll of this to support you guys.

I cannot wait for your color reversal film!! We cannot have too much color reversal film in the world.

Although I do wonder what's going to happen to the color reversal market once we have two new competitors to Fuji - Kodak and Ferrania, at about the same time. Think about it - for years now Fuji has been the only man in the ballpark for color slide, completely unchallenged. Now all of a sudden they're going to have competition. I would assume this would tend to drive prices down at least a little... and then what happens? Is the slide film market really big enough to support three competitors like this? It just makes me worried cause I don't want any of these companies to suffer, and I especially don't want to see any of my film options drop out

I think Fuji will be the one that suffers the most.

Cholentpot · Mar 16, 2017

Nzoomed said:
I think Fuji will be the one that suffers the most.

An elephant has no cares for the mosquitoes share.

flavio81 · Mar 16, 2017

I'm gonna have to learn italian!!

Cholentpot said:
An elephant has no cares for the mosquitoes share.

But the Fuji E6 products are very expensive. More expensive than ever. If Ferrania can release a product that, while perhaps not being state of the art as Provia 100F, is a good, usable E6 product, at a lower price point, this could impact Fuji.

Also, Fuji is a company designed for high volume film sales. Ferrania, the opposite.

Berri · Mar 16, 2017

flavio81 said:
I'm gonna have to learn italian!!

But the Fuji E6 products are very expensive. More expensive than ever. If Ferrania can release a product that, while perhaps not being state of the art as Provia 100F, is a good, usable E6 product, at a lower price point, this could impact Fuji.

Also, Fuji is a company designed for high volume film sales. Ferrania, the opposite.

We mustn't forget that at the present time Fuji's most expensive (and only) black and white film sells for less than 8€ per roll. I hope that p30's price is justified by being an alpha version and that the finished product will sell for 4 to 6€. I still believe that they are wasting a lot of time with this black and white film while they could be working on what they were paid for: producing a colour transparency film.

Cholentpot · Mar 16, 2017

flavio81 said:
I'm gonna have to learn italian!!

But the Fuji E6 products are very expensive. More expensive than ever. If Ferrania can release a product that, while perhaps not being state of the art as Provia 100F, is a good, usable E6 product, at a lower price point, this could impact Fuji.

Also, Fuji is a company designed for high volume film sales. Ferrania, the opposite.

What I mean is Fuji can shut down all its film lines and really not feel it. I think they view film - except for Instax - as a grindstone.

flavio81 · Mar 17, 2017

Cholentpot said:
What I mean is Fuji can shut down all its film lines and really not feel it. I think they view film - except for Instax - as a grindstone.

I'm not sure; i think someone on apug recently posted info from an interview to the Fuji CEO or film VP, and he said something like 14% of sales was film (not including Instax).

flavio81 · Mar 17, 2017

Berri said:
I hope that p30's price is justified by being an alpha version and that the finished product will sell for 4 to 6€.

It costs so much because, as Nicola said regarding P30, "each frame is a piece of jewerly". You can create jewerly or "bling-bling" with each click, magically, like if you were Antani!!

(just joking)

Agulliver · Mar 17, 2017

Berri said:
We mustn't forget that at the present time Fuji's most expensive (and only) black and white film sells for less than 8€ per roll. I hope that p30's price is justified by being an alpha version and that the finished product will sell for 4 to 6€. I still believe that they are wasting a lot of time with this black and white film while they could be working on what they were paid for: producing a colour transparency film.

The original plan, as I understand it (Dave, please correct me if wrong)....was to use the last batch of 3M type chemicals to make one last run of something akin to Scotch Chrome for the Kickstarter backers rewards......then to do what they have done now...formulate a B&W film before going on to formulate their own E6 slide film.

But that all went to pot when all the troubles getting the LRF up and running in 2016 happened....they had reckoned on a short window where they had power etc. and could do that one last run with the old chemicals. That was taken away from them and from that moment the order of play was changed.

They made this all clear in their updates. They are working towards the ultimate goal of a new E6 colour reversal film. The first real step in that journey is a B&W film to check that their machinery is working, check that their chemists, engineers, computers are all doing the jobs they should. The sale of P30 Alpha will also inject funds that must by now be much needed. The Kickstarter funds have probably run dry...people need wages, bills need paying.

The game plan changed when they couldn't get that small window of time in which to make the reward films.

Chris Livsey · Mar 17, 2017

flavio81 said:
he said something like 14% of sales was film (not including Instax).

Sales are easy, relatively, it's turning those into profit. I would be happier if he had said 14% of profit.

Berri · Mar 17, 2017

Chris Livsey said:
Sales are easy, relatively, it's turning those into profit. I would be happier if he had said 14% of profit.

Fuji is a very diversified company. The majority of their profit is probably from the pharmaceutical division and cosmetics. Film heritage made it possible because that have a huge catalogue of chemical compounds developed for the film industry. They are committed to film and won't leave the market completely in the foreseeable future, I hope.

Berri · Mar 17, 2017

Agulliver said:
The original plan, as I understand it (Dave, please correct me if wrong)....was to use the last batch of 3M type chemicals to make one last run of something akin to Scotch Chrome for the Kickstarter backers rewards......then to do what they have done now...formulate a B&W film before going on to formulate their own E6 slide film.

But that all went to pot when all the troubles getting the LRF up and running in 2016 happened....they had reckoned on a short window where they had power etc. and could do that one last run with the old chemicals. That was taken away from them and from that moment the order of play was changed.

They made this all clear in their updates. They are working towards the ultimate goal of a new E6 colour reversal film. The first real step in that journey is a B&W film to check that their machinery is working, check that their chemists, engineers, computers are all doing the jobs they should. The sale of P30 Alpha will also inject funds that must by now be much needed. The Kickstarter funds have probably run dry...people need wages, bills need paying.

The game plan changed when they couldn't get that small window of time in which to make the reward films.

I don't remember they have ever mentioned a black and white film at the start, actually they made clear the bw film marked was already packed.
The last batch with old chemicals was planned for the rewards but after that they should have made chrome film anew and later colour negatives. We know they were forced to change their original schedule, but no bw film was ever mentioned at the start. They decided to give it a go after checking the results of their first coating batch; they thought it was indeed a reasonable good black and white film and decided to reformulate the old P30 emulsion so that they could start selling something probably to cash more and to prove the backers that something good was moving. Years later we are still waiting for chromes and they waste (my opinion) time on black and white. These are the facts, then you can make whichever novel suits you best out of it

Richard Eaton · Mar 17, 2017

Berri said:
I don't remember they have ever mentioned a black and white film at the start, actually they made clear the bw film marked was already packed.
The last batch with old chemicals was planned for the rewards but after that they should have made chrome film anew and later colour negatives. We know they were forced to change their original schedule, but no bw film was ever mentioned at the start. They decided to give it a go after checking the results of their first coating batch; they thought it was indeed a reasonable good black and white film and decided to reformulate the old P30 emulsion so that they could start selling something probably to cash more and to prove the backers that something good was moving. Years later we are still waiting for chromes and they waste (my opinion) time on black and white. These are the facts, then you can make whichever novel suits you best out of it

So does that mean that they have been forced to abandon the batch of E6 for the rewards(Scotchchrome type using the old chemicals), and now have to start again by reformulating their own E6 film ? I could understand the reasons for that, but wonder just how long it will now take, particularly if they get a large number of orders for the P30 and decide to divert resources to meet that demand. (And, in the meantime, Kodak are possibly getting ready to bring back Ektachrome within a matter of months ? IDK ? )

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

removed-user-1

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