Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

Agulliver · Mar 16, 2017

Waaa Waaaa Waaaaa

Honestly. What part of "alpha product" do some people not understand? This IS NOT the final product, IS NOT the final price and a lot of changes will happen between now and the time when any Ferrania film reaches the general market.

Two rolls ordered and I suspect I will have a lot of fun trying them.

twelvetone12 · Mar 16, 2017

I ordered my rolls with my coupon, and I and want to sincerely thank Dave for resolving the situation so quickly in such a critical moment, you did a good job binging back the store in a timely fashion.
And my apologies if I did sound a bit hash Monday - it was not my intention.

Agulliver · Mar 16, 2017

Honestly, if the people at Film Ferrania had the same attitude as many posters to this thread, they would have given up in a sulk and refused to make film ever again.

The sense of entitlement is tangible.

To the guys at Ferrania, well done. You have achieved the almost impossible and got your first film out. Pat yourselves on the back.

Chris Livsey · Mar 16, 2017

Next wait is for when and for how much the first rolls are on e-bay

Arctic amateur · Mar 16, 2017

I ordered three rolls, without discount. (Any more and VAT/customs fees would have kicked in, since Norway is not in the EU.) Expensive, yes, but I hardly expected a startup company to be able to coat with the economies of scale of Eastman Kodak or HARMAN. Hopefully they'll be able to reduce prices when things are more streamlined. After all, this is still a prototype product and the assembly line isn't fully operational.

Having sponsored a few kickstarters (sadly I wasn't able to support this one at the time) I've come to expect all kickstarter deadlines to be optimistic fictions. Go Ferrania!

Berri · Mar 16, 2017

Alessandro Serrao said:
Ahahaha, I doubt people will understand antani, tarapia tapioca, la supercazzola con scappellamento a destra, per due...

"amici miei" was probably shot with ferrania film, they should know! Great films by the way

Berri · Mar 16, 2017

Agulliver said:
Waaa Waaaa Waaaaa

Honestly. What part of "alpha product" do some people not understand? This IS NOT the final product, IS NOT the final price and a lot of changes will happen between now and the time when any Ferrania film reaches the general market.

Two rolls ordered and I suspect I will have a lot of fun trying them.

c'mon! we know that, I'm just making some fun about it! Take it less seriusly! I will buy their film no matter what it costs!

Trond · Mar 16, 2017

Congratulations Ferrania! Thank you for all the hard work!

Five films ordered. I supported the Kickstarter, and I have never really been worried that Film Ferrania wouldn't deliver. There have been delays, but I understand the reasons and Film Ferrania has always been very open in their communication.

I'm puzzled by the time and energy some people here are wasting on pointless negativity. Why not spend some of that creating something good? Nice photographs f. ex.

Trond

Berri · Mar 16, 2017

Trond said:
Congratulations Ferrania! Thank you for all the hard work!

Five films ordered. I supported the Kickstarter, and I have never really been worried that Film Ferrania wouldn't deliver. There have been delays, but I understand the reasons and Film Ferrania has always been very open in their communication.

I'm puzzled by the time and energy some people here are wasting on pointless negativity. Why not spend some of that creating something good? Nice photographs f. ex.

Trond

I do it almost every day! I also do other stuff, being negative for example. Jokes aside, I'm really pleased to see this P30 finally on the market. I can't wait to see the rsults people get with different developers. I don't shoot much BW so I'll have to wait a bit more but I will definitely buy chromes

Richard Eaton · Mar 16, 2017

Burninfilm said:
I can see from where some of the criticism is coming. At some point, FILM Ferrania isn't going to be able to plead for understanding from the goodwill of their supporters whenever a deadline is missed, a promise is broken, etc. At some point, they'll have to put on their big boy pants and go play on the same playground as Fuji, Kodak, etc.

The biggest issue is that they have failed pretty much ALL of the deadlines they have set out for themselves. Seriously... go look through old press releases related to FILM Ferrania. Even the press releases/stories about the introduction of P30 a few months back mention the film being available for sale in mid-February. Consequently, many people are likely just frustrated/concerned. It's somewhat like watching a good friend keep repeating the same mistakes, and trying to give them a bit of advice. Of course, that friend doesn't have to listen. LOL.

I commend them for fixing the web store issues relatively quickly. Good stuff.

There are so many possibilities for the future if they are successful!

I'm a Ferrania Kickstarter backer, and. needless to say, wish them success and admire the work and application of their technical team, but have just found this thread after becoming rather disappointed by the continual missed targets and delays. Clearly others have similar views and concerns both here and other forums.

It does seem that things have changed from the original aim of producing E6 films in four sizes, with the incentive of some free "rewards" for backers,; we're now being offered an "alpha" version of a 35mm B&W film, being sold "as is" at a price per roll considerably higher then similar but long-established film from Ilford, etc. I can't help but be reminded of Lomography who sell stock of what some might regard as "faulty" film, as special "limited" editions or to produce unexpected weird effects (that's not a criticism of them, by the way, they seem to have a successful business model).

Mention of the original E6 project seems to have disappeared in the "excitement" about P30 ? It was this E6 project which appealed as filling a need at a time when Kodak had withdrawn from Ektachrome..... not the production of another B&W film while, thankfully, there is still a selection of quality B&W readily available from Kodak, Ilford and the existing smaller players. In the meantime, Kodak have indicated that they may be reviving Ektachrome....it hasn't happened yet, but, if and when it does appear, we can be sure that it will be a quality product. It concerns me that, given the understandable problems still to be overcome in producing the final version of P30 ("Alpha", "Beta", "Gamma", "Delta", "Epsilon", etc., versions ??), how much more difficult will it be before a final quality E6 Ferrania film can be made ?

Sensing the general atmosphere here, I'm probably going to be shot down in flames. But I'd much rather be corrected if I'm getting something wrong in my speculation ?

Berri · Mar 16, 2017

Richard Eaton said:
I'm a Ferrania Kickstarter backer, and. needless to say, wish them success and admire the work and application of their technical team, but have just found this thread after becoming rather disappointed by the continual missed targets and delays. Clearly others have similar views and concerns both here and other forums.

It does seem that things have changed from the original aim of producing E6 films in four sizes, with the incentive of some free "rewards" for backers,; we're now being offered an "alpha" version of a 35mm B&W film, being sold "as is" at a price per roll considerably higher then similar but long-established film from Ilford, etc. I can't help but be reminded of Lomography who sell stock of what some might regard as "faulty" film, as special "limited" editions or to produce unexpected weird effects (that's not a criticism of them, by the way, they seem to have a successful business model).

Mention of the original E6 project seems to have disappeared in the "excitement" about P30 ? It was this E6 project which appealed as filling a need at a time when Kodak had withdrawn from Ektachrome..... not the production of another B&W film while, thankfully, there is still a selection of quality B&W readily available from Kodak, Ilford and the existing smaller players. In the meantime, Kodak have indicated that they may be reviving Ektachrome....it hasn't happened yet, but, if and when it does appear, we can be sure that it will be a quality product. It concerns me that, given the understandable problems still to be overcome in producing the final version of P30 ("Alpha", "Beta", "Gamma", "Delta", "Epsilon", etc., versions ??), how much more difficult will it be before a final quality E6 Ferrania film can be made ?

Sensing the general atmosphere here, I'm probably going to be shot down in flames. But I'd much rather be corrected if I'm getting something wrong in my speculation ?

The E6 film is still the main project, I think it's going to be delayed a lot more because at the present time the lab technicians are working to produce black and white film. My concern is that if they take too much time people will lose interest in this project, don't forget that this is the year of Ektachrome come back. I still believe that they shouldn't have gone down the BW route; this will only cause them to waste much more time, and as many people mentioned, ther is a lot to choose from in the BW market already. I also agree with you when you say that their terminology reminds the hipstery lomography "limited edition" films. I was hoping for a more professional approach. Althoug, as you say, they (lomography) have a successful business model, people who are into that kind of things will stick to the real deal not the new comers.
I will buy their chrome once on the market and possibly some P30 just to play with. I wish the italian staff the best luck!

Ricardo Miranda · Mar 16, 2017

Richard Eaton said:
I'm a Ferrania Kickstarter backer, and. needless to say, wish them success and admire the work and application of their technical team, but have just found this thread after becoming rather disappointed by the continual missed targets and delays. Clearly others have similar views and concerns both here and other forums.

It does seem that things have changed from the original aim of producing E6 films in four sizes, with the incentive of some free "rewards" for backers,; we're now being offered an "alpha" version of a 35mm B&W film, being sold "as is" at a price per roll considerably higher then similar but long-established film from Ilford, etc. I can't help but be reminded of Lomography who sell stock of what some might regard as "faulty" film, as special "limited" editions or to produce unexpected weird effects (that's not a criticism of them, by the way, they seem to have a successful business model).

Mention of the original E6 project seems to have disappeared in the "excitement" about P30 ? It was this E6 project which appealed as filling a need at a time when Kodak had withdrawn from Ektachrome..... not the production of another B&W film while, thankfully, there is still a selection of quality B&W readily available from Kodak, Ilford and the existing smaller players. In the meantime, Kodak have indicated that they may be reviving Ektachrome....it hasn't happened yet, but, if and when it does appear, we can be sure that it will be a quality product. It concerns me that, given the understandable problems still to be overcome in producing the final version of P30 ("Alpha", "Beta", "Gamma", "Delta", "Epsilon", etc., versions ??), how much more difficult will it be before a final quality E6 Ferrania film can be made ?

Sensing the general atmosphere here, I'm probably going to be shot down in flames. But I'd much rather be corrected if I'm getting something wrong in my speculation ?

Welcome Richard from a Sunny London!

TheToadMen · Mar 16, 2017

Chris Livsey said:
Next wait is for when and for how much the first rolls are on e-bay

You mean like a real Tulip mania/crisis?

FilmCurlCom · Mar 16, 2017

Have just preorder 3 films from Austria, worked like a charm.
So I can confirm the webshop was stable at the moment.

fdonadio · Mar 16, 2017

Last night here (GMT -3), the shop was stable last evening, about 8pm.

Bought 5 rolls to justify the shipping from Europe, which is expensive. Not that I didn't expect that.

My 2 cents:

1. IMO, P30 Alpha is expensive right now. I really thought it would be on par with offerings from Kodak and Ilford. I really do hope it gets cheaper in the future.

2. I thought VAT wouldn't apply to sales outside the EU, just like sales tax is not applied when I buy from the US.

Cheers,
Flavio

FilmCurlCom · Mar 16, 2017

However, I still did not get any confirmation email.
Shouldn't I at least get an "OK, you paid and your card has been accepted"?
Did that happen for you others?

Trond · Mar 16, 2017

FilmCurlCom said:
However, I still did not get any confirmation email.
Shouldn't I at least get an "OK, you paid and your card has been accepted"?
Did that happen for you others?

I got an order confirmation on e-mail.

TheToadMen · Mar 16, 2017

fdonadio said:
2. I thought VAT wouldn't apply to sales outside the EU, just like sales tax is not applied when I buy from the US.
Cheers,
Flavio

It shouldn't if you're outside the European Union (EU). But it seems that for Italy the rule is: "you make your purchases in an Italian store and spend at least €154,94 on the same day."
See: http://www.taxrefund.it/rules.php

flavio81 · Mar 16, 2017

Alessandro Serrao said:
Ahahaha, I doubt people will understand antani, tarapia tapioca, la supercazzola con scappellamento a destra, per due...

Must I watch "amici mei" to understand? Will subtitles work?

flavio81 · Mar 16, 2017

Richard Eaton said:
It does seem that things have changed from the original aim of producing E6 films in four sizes(...)
Mention of the original E6 project seems to have disappeared in the "excitement" about P30 ?

For making color film they need first to test how well their machine lays down the emulsions on the film base. Thus, they have to start with a non-color (B/W) film. This is exactly what they've done with P30.

P30 serves them to finetune their whole process in preparation for later coating of the E6 color films.

This has already mentioned by them on some videos at the Ferrania website.

removed-user-1 · Mar 16, 2017

I'm a Kickstarter backer. The shop is inaccessible to me from multiple browsers, on multiple computers, using different network connections, and all sorts of Internet tricks such as refreshing the DNS, clearing the cache, etc. Nothing works. So, at this point I will be happy if someday I receive the two rolls of E6. If that never happens, I'm only out $25 to help a film company get off the ground.

bvy · Mar 16, 2017

I had trouble with the web form too. I think I had to turn my monitor upside-down and sing "That's Amore" to get the credit card number field to show up. The last thing you want on an e-commerce site is a quirky order entry screen. People are funny as it is (and rightfully so) about entering credit card information on the internet. All of that hyper-functional stuff built into the credit card field is unnecessary at best (and potentially non-secure at worst).

Richard Eaton · Mar 16, 2017

flavio81 said:
For making color film they need first to test how well their machine lays down the emulsions on the film base. Thus, they have to start with a non-color (B/W) film. This is exactly what they've done with P30.

P30 serves them to finetune their whole process in preparation for later coating of the E6 color films.

This has already mentioned by them on some videos at the Ferrania website.

I do fully understand that, and I do appreciate the very valid reasons for most of the delays so far. My only worry is that, if there is so much difficulty in getting a B&W film to a level of quality comparable with the established makes (and I don't doubt that it really is as hard as it seems), it is going to be an enormoufurther task to make a color film ? That is not a criticism of anyone, least of all Ferrania. I really worry how long it will take, and, if there will, in afew years time, still be enough demand for transparency film.....and even any reliable labs without sending the film 1000's of miles to be processed. After all, Kodachrome didn't survive through lack of demand, despite all its arguable virtues.

My second point was that the "Lomography" (no offence to Lomo!) style selling of "alpha" and "beta" editions, which are really just proto-type test coatings, warts and all, seems to have taken attention from the original plan of producing E6. It's nearly three years since the Kickstarter and at that time it did appear a good project, as it seemed that E6 films might be vanishing for ever, given Kodak's discontinuances and no real indications of Fuji's long-term plans.....in the meantime, it looks as though we may have Ektachrome returning, hopefully from a more stable Kodak company, while there is no desparate need of another B&W film for the foreseeable future (other than the fun of experimenting with something different!).

Again, I am not being negative or critical, but this is a thread in "Industry news" so I assume that comment is acceptable.

flavio81 · Mar 16, 2017

Richard Eaton said:
I do fully understand that, and I do appreciate the very valid reasons for most of the delays so far. My only worry is that, if there is so much difficulty in getting a B&W film to a level of quality comparable with the established makes (and I don't doubt that it really is as hard as it seems), it is going to be an enormoufurther task to make a color film ? That is not a criticism of anyone, least of all Ferrania.

Consider that ferrania already has the people, formulas, patents, chemicals (they have chemicals in stock, ample stocks!) to make not only one E6 slide film but many different types of E6 slide films.

So they are not "starting from 0". What they are doing is "restarting" or "resuming" production, at a smaller scale. Not exactly starting from zero.

But part of the project is to be sure the tanks, pumps, coater, slitters, etc; are working OK. So it makes total sense to start first with a B/W emulsion which is simpler. And once they get it right, they proceed to E6.

To be honest, the pictures of scratched P30 film was the very very first coating they made. I think that for being the first coating, it looks good. They have already found out what was scratching the film, they have uploaded a video on this specific topic. It was a simple issue.

Richard Eaton said:
After all, Kodachrome didn't survive through lack of demand, despite all its arguable virtues.

Yes but it is not a business case because K14 could only be processed at one or two places in the world, while you can develop E6 films at home. Also, many K14 users moved to E6 films.

Berri · Mar 16, 2017

flavio81 said:
Must I watch "amici mei" to understand? Will subtitles work?

I doubt it, sorry. The "supercazzola" scene is just brilliant but very difficult if not impossible to translate and probably wouldn't be as funny for non Italians, you have to get the cultural context. Basically is this guy talking nonsense to a traffic warden who was about to give a fine to the guy's mates. Since that film has come into fashion to "give" people a "supercazzola" and if they answer "what?" You say "puppa!" Which means "suck it!" It's just an old joke to piss people off a little bit

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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