Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

Berri · Mar 1, 2017

Since the beginning Ferrania made it sound like it was gonna be a matter of few months before we'd start shooting their films. That wasn't necessary. Keeping backers informed doesn't mean telling things that might not come true. Now, for example, you decided to have a count-down clock on your website, what if something else goes wrong? Your credibility goes down a little bit more among those who already lost faith in you, and to be honest a countdown doesn't add more information; we already knew that soon your shop will open.

Prest_400 · Mar 1, 2017

This discussion reminds me of an open source community and wishlists+development topics had this motto:

Soon™

Berri said:
Since the beginning Ferrania made it sound like it was gonna be a matter of few months before we'd start shooting their films.

The original plan was to use the LRF as it was to coat a single run of E6 film. That simply was brave to try. Asbestos was found in the building, and the original timeline went off. The second issue afterwards was the utilities cutoff. I think it was alright to have all the lengthening anyways to consolidate the LRF solidly, and starting off new as they are doing, may have helped to be a bit more sustainable.

Nzoomed · Mar 1, 2017

Berri said:
Since the beginning Ferrania made it sound like it was gonna be a matter of few months before we'd start shooting their films. That wasn't necessary. Keeping backers informed doesn't mean telling things that might not come true. Now, for example, you decided to have a count-down clock on your website, what if something else goes wrong? Your credibility goes down a little bit more among those who already lost faith in you, and to be honest a countdown doesn't add more information; we already knew that soon your shop will open.

Have you ever backed any Kickstarter projects before?

This is something to be expected, and I see this all the time, every project ive backed has always had some sort of inevitable delay, and they have always delivered at the end of the day...

Diapositivo · Mar 1, 2017

Nzoomed said:
Have you ever backed any Kickstarter projects before?

This is something to be expected, and I see this all the time, every project ive backed has always had some sort of inevitable delay, and they have always delivered at the end of the day...

It's not just Kickstarter projects, it is true for many forms of investment.
When investors begin investing in an oil field (think Kashagan oilfields in Kazakstan) they think that, if no surprise arises, in two years they will be pumping oil. Surprise do happen, and maybe after six years they are not yet pumping. Road construction poses similar challenges, or urban development etc.

The path taken by Ferrania was particularly daring. Their timeline estimate was, I do believe, honest in the light of foreseeable difficulties. But when one begins sailing in uncharted waters, one has to expect new and unforeseen difficulties. What encourages me is the constance, the determination which the Ferrania team demonstrated in working all the problems, even changing drastically plans when necessary. The ability to change plans, to reconsider a strategy, is actually a very good sign of wise management IMO. People who fail is people who think they have a rock-solid project, without the ability to adapt to new challenges and circumstances, and who after failing will blame the circumstances.
People who succeed is people who swim in the sea of circumstances, or raft in the river of circumstances, without ever losing sight of the final objective.

Berri · Mar 1, 2017

Nzoomed said:
they have always delivered at the end of the day...

"Always" is a little bit too optimistic. Actually, there are loads of kickstrter projects that never delivered.
Everybody Knows that the majority of the kickstarter project missed their delivery dates, but it's usually a matter of few months, not years. In this case Ferrania did not produce a plausible timeline to start with, but that is my opinion.
Unfortunatelly not everybody is patient enough and, as I see in many forums, there are people ready to discredit the project. I do not mind waiting and I'm more than optimistic, but this totally unrealistic timeline made people lose faith in this project.

Nzoomed · Mar 1, 2017

Berri said:
"Always" is a little bit too optimistic. Actually, there's a lot of kickstrter projects that never delivered.
Everybody Knows That the majority of The kickstarter project missed delivery dates, but usually you is a matter of few months, not years. In this case Ferrania did not produce a plausible timeline to start with, but That Is My opinion.
Unfortunatelly not everybody is patient enough and, as I see in many forums, there are people ready to discredit the project. I do not mind waiting and I'm more than optimistic, but this totally unrealistic timeline made people lose faith in this project.

I was only speaking form personal experience on kickstarter, but im well aware that many projects never succeed.
I think the timeline was realistic enough for Ferrania, but they had alot of unforeseen events that messed up their timeline, again not their fault.

Berri · Mar 1, 2017

Nzoomed said:
again not their fault.

I am not saying it is their fault, although it was fairly probable to find asbestos in that kind of building.

Nzoomed · Mar 1, 2017

Berri said:
I am not saying it is their fault, although it was fairly probable to find asbestos in that kind of building.

Perhaps so, but It normally would not have been an issue unless it was being disturbed with renovations.

Berri · Mar 1, 2017

don't get me wrong though, I think that they did a great job and nobody could have made it quicker nor better. All I am saying is that they boasted a little bit too much

Nzoomed said:
Perhaps so, but It normally would not have been an issue unless it was being disturbed with renovations.

they knew they had to do some renovations...afterall the factory was abandoned for years.
I just think they have been to optimistic with the timeline, I thought so in the beginning. Now it really make me angry because I see people discrediting them beacause of this.

Photo Engineer · Mar 1, 2017

Actually, there was a lot of background chatter about this project in e-mails and PMs. Our professional opinions were gathered and we felt that the schedule was much too optimistic, and it has proven to be true.

I wish them great success, but the road ahead will be very rocky for them as well as Kodak as it moves to bring back Ektachrome.

PE

cmacd123 · Mar 1, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Our professional opinions were gathered and we felt that the schedule was much too optimistic, and it has proven to be true.

Remember that the old rule of expaning scope has come into play. the orginal scope of the project was to show enough of a market to get the Local governmental folks to let the gang have access to the building and save enough equipment from the scrap yard to be able to set up a small Film Factory. The Kickstarter promise was based on using existing supplies to run off a batch of old formula E6 Film using left over supplies, then figure out how to carry out the Downsizing plans that 3M/Imation/Ferrania had developed to turn the former LRF to a small scale coating factory. (The hints we got indicated converting a bunch of unused office space into a drying tunnel so they could speed up the existing research Coater to higher speed, using who knows what saved from the demolition of the big Coating building and the several coating lines there...

I suspect that the obstacles they have dealt with have resulted in that plan being further along, but the scope being much bigger than the folks imagined. the fact that we are now being offered the P30 B&W film seemingly out of the blue is probably a representation of that scope creep.

Nzoomed · Mar 1, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Actually, there was a lot of background chatter about this project in e-mails and PMs. Our professional opinions were gathered and we felt that the schedule was much too optimistic, and it has proven to be true.

I wish them great success, but the road ahead will be very rocky for them as well as Kodak as it moves to bring back Ektachrome.

PE

Kodak reintroducing Ektachrome will only help the future of E6 film, so I dont think its a bad thing.

I do however see that Kodak may have felt that they were missing out on a good chunk of the market with Ferrania coming to the scene, so perhaps they want to try and beat Ferrania to bringing back an E6 film?

IDK, but either way, people like experimenting with different films, and the lomography community also like shooting alot of E6 films for cross processing.

Photo Engineer · Mar 1, 2017

cmacd123 said:
Remember that the old rule of expaning scope has come into play. the orginal scope of the project was to show enough of a market to get the Local governmental folks to let the gang have access to the building and save enough equipment from the scrap yard to be able to set up a small Film Factory. The Kickstarter promise was based on using existing supplies to run off a batch of old formula E6 Film using left over supplies, then figure out how to carry out the Downsizing plans that 3M/Imation/Ferrania had developed to turn the former LRF to a small scale coating factory. (The hints we got indicated converting a bunch of unused office space into a drying tunnel so they could speed up the existing research Coater to higher speed, using who knows what saved from the demolition of the big Coating building and the several coating lines there...

I suspect that the obstacles they have dealt with have resulted in that plan being further along, but the scope being much bigger than the folks imagined. the fact that we are now being offered the P30 B&W film seemingly out of the blue is probably a representation of that scope creep.

I'm aware of all of this. Please do not misinterpret my comments as being negative! Given all they had to do, it was near impossible even with the parameters you say.

As for Kodak's effort, the market is very tiny. We will have to see what happens in the future.

PE

fdonadio · Mar 1, 2017

Nzoomed said:
I do however see that Kodak may have felt that they were missing out on a good chunk of the market with Ferrania coming to the scene, so perhaps they want to try and beat Ferrania to bringing back an E6 film?

I am sure Kodak had a good idea of how much E6 film Fuji was selling before the Ferrania Kickstarter campaign.

Ektachrome is only coming back because of the Super-8 camera Kodak is launching later this year. And it's probably only coming back in 135 format for still photography because there's not enough of a market for Super-8, so they won't lose any of those huge jumbo rolls!

I shoot too little 135 film and, when I do, I shoot negative. I got a little sad when the announcement of Ektachrome didn't include 120 format and I know why: support thickness is not the same as 135.

I am impressed that Super-8 and 135 are the same thickness.

Cheers,
Flavio

Ricardo Miranda · Mar 1, 2017

cmacd123 said:
then figure out how to carry out the Downsizing plans that 3M/Imation/Ferrania had developed to turn the former LRF to a small scale coating factory.

Charles,
I think uou got the story a bit wrong: I don't believe there involvement of Ferrania Technologies in the plan for downsizing.
And by the was nor 3M nor Imation were involved in Ferrania Technologies when they closed production in 2011.
The plan for downsizing comes from Nicola and Marco.

You can read about it on the same place where Marco first came announcing his plans: a thread that I started in 2012 on the Flickr group "I shot Film":
https://www.flickr.com/groups/ishootfilm/discuss/72157630192838072/

Here is a quote from that thread regarding the final years of Ferrania Technologies:

1996-1999
Imation manifacture a wide range of photographic films. That range includes :

Color Negative : ISO 100, ISO 200, ISO 400
Color Slide : ISO100, ISO 400, ISO640 Tungsten

June 22, 1999
Imation sell it’s Photo Business and Italian Manufacturing plant to SCHRODER VENTURES. Some time after that, Ignazio Messina & C. S.p.A became Ferrania's new owner.

2000
Ferrania introduces it’s first range of films
Solaris FG is available in four speeds and four formats:
ISO 100 [135]
ISO 200 [135,110,126,APS]
ISO 400 [135,APS]
ISO 800 [135]

A color reversal film is also introduced : Solaris Chrome 100 [135]

2003
The full range of color negative films is improved
Solaris FG100 -> Solaris FG100 Plus
Solaris FG200 -> Solaris FG200 Plus
Solaris FG400 -> Solaris FG400i
Solaris FG800 -> Solaris FG800i

2004
Ferrania Imaging Technologies goes the Italian equivalent of bankruptcy (or something like that. The translation of the text was not clear). With financial help from the Italian government, Ferrania is back as Ferrania Technologies.

2005
As of 2005, Solaris FG Plus is available in four speeds and four formats:
ISO 100 [135]
ISO 200 [135, 110,126, APS]
ISO 400 [135]
ISO 800 [135]

The reversal film is discontinued.

2007
Production of 126 and 110 films stops.

2008
Ferrania announce that film production will stop in 2008. However, the same year, the company signs an agreement with it’s employees stating that film production will continues for another three years.

2010
Ferrania USA stop producing and distiributing films in North America

2010-2011
Ferrania stop producing films.

2011
Ferrania UK is sold to INFINITT and renamed. Ferrania France goes into liquidation.

2012
CS industries close. It was the last distributor of Ferrania products in the U.S.A.

It is nice to see things evolving.

Don Harpold · Mar 1, 2017

Hello Mr Bias,
I have come late to this party but I am looking forward to trying some of the P30.
I keep going back to the photo of the skull on the website, beautiful tones
I hope I am able to get some in 11 days or so

I will be using it in older rangefinders, Canon P, Minolta HiMatic, Yashica Electro etc.

Thank You
Don

ericdan · Mar 1, 2017

however difficult it was or is, timelines were always too optimistic.
I can only speak for myself, but when I saw "mid Feb" for P30 I knew it wasn't going to happen.

Nzoomed · Mar 1, 2017

Ricardo Miranda said:
Charles,
I think uou got the story a bit wrong: I don't believe there involvement of Ferrania Technologies in the plan for downsizing.
And by the was nor 3M nor Imation were involved in Ferrania Technologies when they closed production in 2011.
The plan for downsizing comes from Nicola and Marco.

You can read about it on the same place where Marco first came announcing his plans: a thread that I started in 2012 on the Flickr group "I shot Film":
https://www.flickr.com/groups/ishootfilm/discuss/72157630192838072/

Here is a quote from that thread regarding the final years of Ferrania Technologies:

It is nice to see things evolving.

When 3M were still operating Ferrania (before they sold it in 2003) they had made a master plan back then that proposed these changes to downscale production of film, as they obviously could forsee the decline of film and the need to make more efficient production.

These plans to reuse the parts of Big Boy were already thought out back then but had never been made, Film Ferrania are simply following their footprint left behind and will work on a similar business model.

Nzoomed · Mar 1, 2017

fdonadio said:
I am sure Kodak had a good idea of how much E6 film Fuji was selling before the Ferrania Kickstarter campaign.

Ektachrome is only coming back because of the Super-8 camera Kodak is launching later this year. And it's probably only coming back in 135 format for still photography because there's not enough of a market for Super-8, so they won't lose any of those huge jumbo rolls!

I shoot too little 135 film and, when I do, I shoot negative. I got a little sad when the announcement of Ektachrome didn't include 120 format and I know why: support thickness is not the same as 135.

I am impressed that Super-8 and 135 are the same thickness.

Cheers,
Flavio

I dont see any reason why they would not introduce 120 at some point, especially because there are alot of shooters that would want it.

They probably will need to invest in a new batch of backing paper with the correct branding printed, thats all.

As far as ferrania go, they intend to produce faster speeds in E6, so ferrania will have a very unique customer base not affected by Kodak's sales.

Prest_400 · Mar 2, 2017

Nzoomed said:
I dont see any reason why they would not introduce 120 at some point, especially because there are alot of shooters that would want it.

Bear in mind that the base is different thickness wise at least, so it means a different master roll. I don't know if s8 and 35mm still share the same base as well.

Back then, I don't know if E100G for stills and E100D for ciné were the same or there was just a minute difference.

Rudeofus · Mar 2, 2017

Prest_400 said:
Bear in mind that the base is different thickness wise at least, so it means a different master roll. I don't know if s8 and 35mm still share the same base as well.

If I look at the photo club I am member in, there are about 3 times as many 135 shooters as 120 shooters, but each of the 120 shooters goes through a lot more material than the 135 shooters combined. With changeable film magazines it is a lot easier to convince someone to just give a film a try. I know, that's just anecdotal evidence and may not be representative of the whole photo market, but I wonder how 120 roll film sales compare to 135 format sales.

Nzoomed · Mar 2, 2017

Prest_400 said:
Bear in mind that the base is different thickness wise at least, so it means a different master roll. I don't know if s8 and 35mm still share the same base as well.

Back then, I don't know if E100G for stills and E100D for ciné were the same or there was just a minute difference.

Is it really different thickness?
First time ive heard this!
What would the reasons be for this I wonder?
S8 is the same as 35mm, as they often slit down unperforated 35mm into s8 at pro8mm and Wittner-Cinetec.

AFAIK E100D and E100 were the same identical stock from the same master roll. If this was not the case, it certainly will be with the new E100

Photo Engineer · Mar 2, 2017

Nzoomed said:
When 3M were still operating Ferrania (before they sold it in 2003) they had made a master plan back then that proposed these changes to downscale production of film, as they obviously could forsee the decline of film and the need to make more efficient production.

These plans to reuse the parts of Big Boy were already thought out back then but had never been made, Film Ferrania are simply following their footprint left behind and will work on a similar business model.

Where did you hear this please?

Photo Engineer · Mar 2, 2017

Nzoomed said:
Is it really different thickness?
First time ive heard this!
What would the reasons be for this I wonder?
S8 is the same as 35mm, as they often slit down unperforated 35mm into s8 at pro8mm and Wittner-Cinetec.

AFAIK E100D and E100 were the same identical stock from the same master roll. If this was not the case, it certainly will be with the new E100

35 mm, 120 and 4x5 may share the same type of support, but the thickness varies. I've posted this so many times, my head is spinning.

PE

RattyMouse · Mar 2, 2017

Nzoomed said:
Kodak reintroducing Ektachrome will only help the future of E6 film, so I dont think its a bad thing.

I do however see that Kodak may have felt that they were missing out on a good chunk of the market with Ferrania coming to the scene, so perhaps they want to try and beat Ferrania to bringing back an E6 film?

Who thinks Kodak will have E6 film on the shelves before Ferrania?

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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