Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[wlodekmj]

Below are my shots taken on the stuff from Wittner, I have had great results with NO yellowing and have not needed to make any adjustments or corrections on my scans. There was no "yellow" cast delibratley added to compensate for aerial photographic purposes. There seems to be some rumour going round that this was done to correct for high UV at higher altitudes then shooting the film.

P.S.
Sorry for getting off topic on this ferrania thread, Im happy to discuss this film further, because I simply have not experienced these issues, nor have many others using this film.
I know others here have had great results from the later batches from Rollei and Lomography without any yellowing also.

There has been a lot more discussion on this by Nzoomed and others in another thread. See this post and the ones following it:

TBH, ive never had any yellowing with my shots, and i leave the film in my camera for some months sometimes.

Only issue ive had is with light piping, usually because the labs unpick the films in bright light.

 

[Berri]

maybe they could have asked at the many internet based photographic suppliers for a partnership and use their web shop to start selling film.

 

[Wallendo]

I don't mind the wait, after all, I have been waiting for a few years. I suspect there are several issues with simply trying to use an existing distributer or film sales site.
1) International access is required. Cobbling together a network of local distributors takes too much time.
2) The original shipment of P30 is an alpha release. Few distributors want to deal with complaints from customers that the film might not be perfect.
3) There may not be a large enough volume of the initial release to ship to multiple distributors.
4) Even if an existing site were used for sales with actual shipments from Ferrania, there would be logistical issues communicating sales from the third-party sites to Ferrania - this would essentially require an e-commerce solution to accept the orders so there would be no cost or time savings.
I hope future sales of the slide film will be distributed through more established channels. It would obviously be cheaper to bulk ship large containers of film to B&H, FreeStyle and Amazon for sale in the US instead of international shipping for multiple small orders.

 

[Berri]

my main concern is, at this point, that Ferrania might not have enough film to evade the orders
they could just

I don't mind the wait, after all, I have been waiting for a few years. I suspect there are several issues with simply trying to use an existing distributer or film sales site.
1) International access is required. Cobbling together a network of local distributors takes too much time.
2) The original shipment of P30 is an alpha release. Few distributors want to deal with complaints from customers that the film might not be perfect.
3) There may not be a large enough volume of the initial release to ship to multiple distributors.
4) Even if an existing site were used for sales with actual shipments from Ferrania, there would be logistical issues communicating sales from the third-party sites to Ferrania - this would essentially require an e-commerce solution to accept the orders so there would be no cost or time savings.
I hope future sales of the slide film will be distributed through more established channels. It would obviously be cheaper to bulk ship large containers of film to B&H, FreeStyle and Amazon for sale in the US instead of international shipping for multiple small orders.

they could sell film in bulk to the suppliers, no logistical issues whatsoever. Also, people who buy P30 know what they are buying, so I don't think there will be any complaint. About the volume, how this is an issue? if there isn't enough material to ship to some internet shops, how there is enough to sell through their web site? If there was let's say 1000 rolls they could sell and ship a hundred to 10 shops.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

No, I would have not guessed, that this could turn into a blocking point for selling film, which is supposed to be the main source of money for Ferrania. There are gazillions of people out there, who either already run a web shop for photographic products, or could could whip one up in a matter of days. It's not like this webshop for P30 would have to handle a million requests per day, although I would certainly wish Ferrania that it would.

Holding up a skilled team of experts in such an obscure and demanding field as emulsion making with webshop monkey business is painful, to say the least, it ranks right with "we couldn't make a coating this week because lead engineer had difficulties fixing the carburetor of his car".

For the record, the web shop is not the "sticking point" nor is it "monkey business" in any way, shape or form. In fact, it's quite surprising that such technically-minded people as exist here on APUG should be the ones to oversimplify this aspect.

Nicola and I are not "holding up" the factory team with the creation of the shop - in fact, the team is working furiously to scale up emulsions making to meet the demand that has been expressed since our announcement. (We will be releasing a video about this topic very soon.)

And as someone who has been building websites by hand since 1995, I can say that there is no such thing as "whip up" when you're talking about a shop that needs to be able to ship globally, from two warehouses on opposite sides of the Atlantic, in two currencies, and with the necessary controls in place to service all customers quickly and professionally. Also please consider for a moment that our shop needs to be able to be operated by one person (me) so as not to drain anything away from my Italian partners.

We have been heads-down figuring out solutions on BOTH sides of the equation - for the factory and for the shop.

The countdown to the launch of the shop begins today. I'll be posting it shortly.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

I don't mind the wait, after all, I have been waiting for a few years. I suspect there are several issues with simply trying to use an existing distributer or film sales site.
1) International access is required. Cobbling together a network of local distributors takes too much time.
2) The original shipment of P30 is an alpha release. Few distributors want to deal with complaints from customers that the film might not be perfect.
3) There may not be a large enough volume of the initial release to ship to multiple distributors.
4) Even if an existing site were used for sales with actual shipments from Ferrania, there would be logistical issues communicating sales from the third-party sites to Ferrania - this would essentially require an e-commerce solution to accept the orders so there would be no cost or time savings.
I hope future sales of the slide film will be distributed through more established channels. It would obviously be cheaper to bulk ship large containers of film to B&H, FreeStyle and Amazon for sale in the US instead of international shipping for multiple small orders.

1) Yes and yes.
2) Most certainly.
3) 100% the reality.
4) Sadly, it's even more complicated than that in order to make things simple for the customer.

In fact, as soon as we can produce enough product to open the wholesale channel, we are EAGER to do so and we have many equally eager resellers lined up. At that time, resellers will be listed FIRST on our shop and we will encourage people to order from them instead of direct from us.

 

[Berri]

For the record, the web shop is not the "sticking point" nor is it "monkey business" in any way, shape or form. In fact, it's quite surprising that such technically-minded people as exist here on APUG should be the ones to oversimplify this aspect.

Nicola and I are not "holding up" the factory team with the creation of the shop - in fact, the team is working furiously to scale up emulsions making to meet the demand that has been expressed since our announcement. (We will be releasing a video about this topic very soon.)

And as someone who has been building websites by hand since 1995, I can say that there is no such thing as "whip up" when you're talking about a shop that needs to be able to ship globally, from two warehouses on opposite sides of the Atlantic, in two currencies, and with the necessary controls in place to service all customers quickly and professionally. Also please consider for a moment that our shop needs to be able to be operated by one person (me) so as not to drain anything away from my Italian partners.

We have been heads-down figuring out solutions on BOTH sides of the equation - for the factory and for the shop.

The countdown to the launch of the shop begins today. I'll be posting it shortly.

that is good news.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

they could sell film in bulk to the suppliers

Eventually, yes, but not for the first 6-8 weeks of full production.

no logistical issues whatsoever

Fewer issues for sure, but at a much higher cost - a cost we simply cannot afford in the short term.

Also, people who buy P30 know what they are buying, so I don't think there will be any complaint.

I really wish this were universally true... MANY people understand. But we still get emails every day from Backers and the general public who have not read a single word or our updates, or watched our videos.
The most common questions from this contingent are "Where is my reward?" and "Where can I buy your film in [sender's city]?"

About the volume, how this is an issue? if there isn't enough material to ship to some internet shops, how there is enough to sell through their web site? If there was let's say 1000 rolls they could sell and ship a hundred to 10 shops.

Again, it's is just not this simple. First of all, it's prohibitively expensive to ship small quantities - it adds too much to the per-piece cost. Also, what happens when a couple of resellers sell out while some others sell slowly? Without data in hand about the proper distribution and sell-through rate in various regions, picking 10 shops would be a total shot in the dark and opens an entirely new can of works about how to shift inventories around to optimize sales.

Selling (initially) through our shop is the only way to both control the fulfillment of orders in a way that is fair to everyone, and to ensure that we don't lose money out of the gate.

 

[Berri]

Eventually, yes, but not for the first 6-8 weeks of full production.



Fewer issues for sure, but at a much higher cost - a cost we simply cannot afford in the short term.



I really wish this were universally true... MANY people understand. But we still get emails every day from Backers and the general public who have not read a single word or our updates, or watched our videos.
The most common questions from this contingent are "Where is my reward?" and "Where can I buy your film in [sender's city]?"



Again, it's is just not this simple. First of all, it's prohibitively expensive to ship small quantities - it adds too much to the per-piece cost. Also, what happens when a couple of resellers sell out while some others sell slowly? Without data in hand about the proper distribution and sell-through rate in various regions, picking 10 shops would be a total shot in the dark and opens an entirely new can of works about how to shift inventories around to optimize sales.

Selling (initially) through our shop is the only way to both control the fulfillment of orders in a way that is fair to everyone, and to ensure that we don't lose money out of the gate.

alright then, just don't let us down and whatever you do is fine with me as long as I'll eventually get to buy colour reversal film!

 

[flavio81]

For the record, the web shop is not the "sticking point" nor is it "monkey business" in any way, shape or form. In fact, it's quite surprising that such technically-minded people as exist here on APUG should be the ones to oversimplify this aspect.
(...)

And as someone who has been building websites by hand since 1995, I can say that there is no such thing as "whip up" when you're talking about a shop that needs to be able to ship globally, from two warehouses on opposite sides of the Atlantic, in two currencies, and with the necessary controls in place to service all customers quickly and professionally. Also please consider for a moment that our shop needs to be able to be operated by one person (me) so as not to drain anything away from my Italian partners.

As a professional working in commercial (for-profit) software engineering for the last 12 years, i agree 100% with you.

Thanks for the update!

 

[Agulliver]

There is a certain amount of "entitlement" permeating these pages.

Film Ferrania have always been scrupulously honest with the photography community, both those who funded their Kickstarter campaign and those who didn't but who are still watching and waiting. Anyone who's attempted to sell anything via a website knows that building even the most simple web shop is a nightmare, buying in a ready made service is expensive and such a service will require customising for the vendor. Platforms exist for selling but they charge per item, which is something I am sure Film Ferrania do not wish to do.

I don't pretend to understand all the technical battles they've won in order to get to the stage where P30 is almost ready for alpha release...but they've explained and documented many of the hurdles. I have built websites from scratch in raw HTML and using applications. It ain't easy, or quick.

I think many people seriously underestimate what the people at Film Ferrania have achieved. They've taken a decommissioned set of equipment and actually managed to make a new film...all under one roof, all in house. I doff my metaphorical hat to them.

 

[keenmaster486]

I think many people seriously underestimate what the people at Film Ferrania have achieved. They've taken a decommissioned set of equipment and actually managed to make a new film...all under one roof, all in house. I doff my metaphorical hat to them.

Amen +100000

 

[Berri]

Now you have to open the shop and start selling film in 12 days, there is no going back.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

I can say that there is no such thing as "whip up" when you're talking about a shop that needs to be able to ship globally, from two warehouses on opposite sides of the Atlantic, in two currencies, and with the necessary controls in place to service all customers quickly and professionally. Also please consider for a moment that our shop needs to be able to be operated by one person (me) so as not to drain anything away from my Italian partners.

That certainly sums up the challenges very nicely. Thanks!

 

[ericdan]

So I guess they have now also missed their mid February deadline for the P30.

 

[Oxleyroad]

I hope when the store goes live everyone interested in the film, and trying to buy it does not crash the server... I've been watching the site all month a couple of times a day wanting the chance to buy my share.

 

[MattKing]

I always enjoy it when people are convinced that something someone else is trying to do is easy and simple .
As the Italian government is a major supporter of Film Ferrania, they too might have some requirements that the web store must fulfill.

 

[ericdan]

Yeah, I find that enjoyable too.
Nothing wrong with figuring out requirements beforehand and then under promising and over deliver.

 

[Berri]

As the Italian government is a major supporter of Film Ferrania, they too might have some requirements that the web store must fulfill.

the regional government you mean.

 

[Berri]

I always enjoy it when people are convinced that something someone else is trying to do is easy and simple .
As the Italian government is a major supporter of Film Ferrania, they too might have some requirements that the web store must fulfill.

I surely don't think it is easy to do what they managed to do. I'm one of those who can't wait to start using their colour film and all I can say is that they did a great job at restoring the factory and produce this first run of film. Maybe, though, they shouldn't have created to much hype around because they in the first place should have known that producing film ain't no easy task. This has most certainly created some doubts

 

[klownshed]

Maybe, though, they shouldn't have created to much hype around because they in the first place should have known that producing film ain't no easy task. This has most certainly created some doubts

I think that this is a direct consequence of crowd funding. If you have private investors you can keep quiet until you're ready to ship, but that won't wash when you're funded (at least partially) via Kickstarter.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

I think that this is a direct consequence of crowd funding. If you have private investors you can keep quiet until you're ready to ship, but that won't wash when you're funded (at least partially) via Kickstarter.

Oh so true... If we had private investors, we wouldn't have 100+ pages in this two-part thread, we wouldn't have done a Kickstarter and we wouldn't have said a word to anyone until we had thousands of rolls in place in our two warehouses.

In many ways, this would have been MUCH simpler - but if we had taken that route, we wouldn't have the incredibly engaged and excited community that we have built over time.

Nicola and I share the philosophy that it's better to communicate - even if it's not perfect, or if we occasionally say things one day that are inaccurate the next day because of some unforeseen issue (like opening the shop "later this month" as we announced on Feb 1st...)

We try to be careful about over-committing, but the truth is that once our products are on the market, everything that came before will be quickly forgotten.

 

[DaveTheWalker]

Thanks Dave,

I think at the moment, the level of communication is just perfect. Earlier in the project, when there were very long pauses between updates, it felt a little as if we'd been forgotten (of course, you were just making sure you had your ducks in a row before making announcements), but these days I am increasingly excited by the Film Ferrania project. Every update brings us closer to the moment we see Film Ferrania products "in the wild", and the dream of 100 more years of film starts to become a reality.

Keep up the great work, guys - we're all rooting for you.

Dave

 

[Mackinaw]

.......We try to be careful about over-committing, but the truth is that once our products are on the market, everything that came before will be quickly forgotten.

Yep, you got it. Once you start to ship your P-30 B&W film, this discussion will immediately change from talking about what Ferrania is trying to do, to talking about the new film itself.

And then a brand new thread will start.

 

[klownshed]

It's been very interesting following the saga from afar. I'm not a kickstarter backer*, yet stilll feel a little bit invested having followed from the start. Conversely, not being a backer means I may have less of a feeling of disappointment when target dates aren't met.

Having every drawback (and success) made so very public might not be an ideal situation, but has the benefit that many of us will have a certain affinity to Ferrania that would be unlikely if it were just another faceless corporate entity. Crowd funding makes you part of the community, for better or for worse!

(*I will definitely be ordering some P30 though, I'm very much a B&W shooter at heart so was very happy --and surprised-- when it was announced)