Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

flavio81 · Feb 3, 2017

Alessandro Serrao said:
Then why not buying the eFKe formulas and start making their emulsions again?

The efke formulas were intended for a coating method ("dip and dunk"?) that was old even in the 50s (according to PE). Emulsion formulas are designed for the particular coating method (and even the particular coating machine) to be used, so the Efke formulas would not work on Ferrania's "little boy" coater, which is a completely different coater, apt for E6 film production and able to deposit 8 layers at once.

And, as Dave mentioned before, Ferrania has a huge knowledge base of formulas, likely dating from the 1940s to the 2000s, including the films designed for 3M, including the 3M Color Slide 640T (or the 1000 speed slide) that i would die to have in 120 version to load into my Mamiya.

Efke made slow speed, medium speed and infrared B/W film, and you can bet that the team at Ferrania knows how to engineer such film, and/or do have recipes for them in the database. (I can bet that P30, 33, and 36 were not the only B/W products offered by Ferrania!!)

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

flavio81 said:
Most of those films (at least P30) were made and designed by Ferrania before the aqcuisition of Ferrania by 3M (1964).

This is true, however most were updated slightly for production in the LRF in the late-60s/early-70s

flavio81 said:
3M invested in Ferrania because (i guess) their plan was to compete against Kodak (3M was already a big company by then and was leader in magnetic tape production as well as other types of tape. 3M is an amazing company!)

According to a 3M document you can find on the web, 3M purchased Ferrania primarily due to their general chemical expertise.

flavio81 said:
So the guys at FILM Ferrania must own right now a lot of intellectual property - lots of formulas, etc.

90+ years of books, documents, blueprints, microfilm, floppy disks, etc. 99% still on wrapped pallets in storage.

flavio81 said:
I've read that Fellini's "8 1/2" was filmed on Ferrania P30 stock. It would be nice to see if somebody finds out a list of films made in Ferrania stock.

We wish someone would do this! We simply have not had time, although I know that Nicola has a document somewhere and adds P30-made films to this list as he stumbles across them. But it's far from comprehensive and unpublishable at this point because it needs to be fully vetted.

flavio81 · Feb 3, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
It's going to be quite a while before we can afford to set up the 126 finishing machine, but since we plan to make P30 forever (and probably other speeds, but maybe not using the old names) - eventually there will be a P30 126.

Wow! This is news worthy of a celebration in itself!!

As for the formats, consider also 220 format. There is no B&W film offered in 220 and many popular medium format cameras, used today, are instantly ready to use 220 format: Mamiya C220, C330, Yashica 124/124G, Pentax 6x7/67, some Rolleiflexes. There are tons of photographers that own at least one of them.

Other cameras can do it with the proper accesories: Mamiya RB and RZ series, Hasselblads, Rolleicords, M645, Mamiya C33 and C22.

I know we're perhaps asking for a bit too much but since you're in charge of marketing, you could perhaps argue that filling out a niche might be profitable.

Cholentpot · Feb 3, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
It's going to be quite a while before we can afford to set up the 126 finishing machine, but since we plan to make P30 forever (and probably other speeds, but maybe not using the old names) - eventually there will be a P30 126.

The 127 finishing machine is far less complex to install than the 126 machine. And we have a very interested B2B customer... But you shouldn't expect it this year unless money rains from the sky and lands on the roof of the LRF.

We must focus our attention on color reversal and our four primary formats before we can dig into the storage building and pull machines to install.

I guess I should pick up the baby rollie while the price is still cheap then.

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

ME Super said:
Rats. Well 35mm is better than not at all for sure.

We most certainly will make P30 in 120 format - but we have several hurdles to clear. We must of course get the 35mm film out of ALPHA first and foremost, and we also need to find a source for backing paper and/or farm the finishing out to a third-party (which we don't want to do because it will drive up the cost). Nicola is working on solving the finishing issues behind the scenes while the factory team focuses on making enough ALPHA film to fulfill the absolutely MASSIVE response we've received since the announcement.

flavio81 · Feb 3, 2017

Thanks Dave for the replies!

Cholentpot said:
I guess I should pick up the baby rollie while the price is still cheap then.

Man, i've passed on so many interesting 126-film and 127-film machines! One was a Yashica TLR for 126 film that was mint and really cute!
Another was the Contaflex 126 model!

railwayman3 · Feb 3, 2017

flavio81 said:
Man, i've passed on so many interesting 126-film and 127-film machines! One was a Yashica TLR for 126 film that was mint and really cute!
Another was the Contaflex 126 model!

So have I ! A Rollei 126 SLR, and a "baby" Rolleiflex TLR 127 ( similar to the Yashica TLR?). I might start looking around for any more !

bvy · Feb 3, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
...while the factory team focuses on making enough ALPHA film to fulfill the absolutely MASSIVE response we've received since the announcement.

I would say excitement is at its peak right now and you should capitalize on it. Take pre-orders!

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Look guys, 35 mm is coated on 5 mil support, 120 on 4 mil support and sheet films on 7 mil support (all figures approximate).

Give the guys at Ferrania a break. They cannot be everything to everyone.

You are talking like the Lieutenant that was so excited about his first cavalry battle that he jumped on his horse and rode off in all directions at once.

One thing at a time!

PE

As usual, you are 100% on point!

The first true coating test was in September - and that was just one layer of green stuff. The first coating of P30 was in December and it had issues in the emulsion (the bubbles we mentioned). The test rolls we sent out were made during the first week of January (and subsequently scratched by the "Baby Slitter").

There was a new coating yesterday (just 30m or so) after the team fully absorbed the sample photos from Batch 2. This new batch will be ready for testing on Monday (needs 3 days to "cure" I'm told) - and we're keeping our fingers crossed that it is ALPHA, but we won't know for sure until Wednesday.

What is clear to me (and hopefully to all APUGers) is how much can be done very quickly, with available resources and almost no waste - even with just six people and only 2 floors of our building operational.

This kind of agility was in fact one of our main objectives in the original formation of the company and, so far, it's proving out.

flavio81 · Feb 3, 2017

Dave mentioned the problem of sourcing the 120 backing paper.

There is a mystique around the 120 backing paper that surprises me. Mystique as in "the paper costs more than the film" (ILFORD representative on APUG) or "only one provider makes the paper". It amazes me that in the whole forum i've seen so many comments regarding 120 backing as the most difficult thing to produce in 120 film.

It can't be that hard to prepare a paper that is opaque, does not print the numbers on the emulsion surface, and wraps tightly at the edges. 120 film was introduced in 1901 and was made at least by the following companies:

USA --- Kodak, Ansco
Germany --- Agfa, Orwo, Adox, Tura, Perutz
Belgium --- Gevaert
UK --- Ilford, Kentmere, Ensign
CZ --- Foma
Croatia --- Efke
Hungary --- Forte
Spain --- Valca, Negra
USSR: --- Svema, Tasma
Japan: --- Fuji, Sakura/Konica
China: --- Shanghai, Lucky

That's 11 countries and 22 brands. I mean, most of them surely made the paper themselves, i really wonder what it is that makes this paper so hard to source or get in 2017.

I hope the team at Ferrania can prepare the backing paper themselves; this would be really great because, as Dave said, this helps keeping the costs low.

And if the paper is easier to make if it does not have frame numbers (i understand that Lomography and Kodak have had problems with numbers imprinting on the emulsion, and it has happened to me as well), then I would certainly buy 120 paper without the frame numbers. Most of my medium format cameras do not require them. Almost all SLR and TLR medium format cameras do not need frame numbers printed on the backing paper! It is the folder cameras and the box cameras the ones who need it.

127 film, of course, will need to have the numbers since most 127 film cameras (like the Ferrania Euralux) use the little 'red window'.

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

bvy said:
I would say excitement is at its peak right now and you should capitalize on it. Take pre-orders!

Unfortunately, pre-sales are a sticky business. There are laws (various ones in various countries) that put limits on the term "pre-sale". Plus we are not using sophisticated e-commerce software at this point - just "off-the-shelf" stuff that is affordable on our no-budget budget.

That said, when the shop launches, we're going to be completely transparent about our status. We'll have to take every order on a first-come, first-served basis and make it clear that orders could take a couple of weeks to ship.

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

flavio81 said:
As for the formats, consider also 220 format.

We are certainly considering 220, but it will require an investment in our 120 finishing line. I asked Nicola about 220 long ago and he explained that our 120 line was designed to also produce 220 but that some "add-on" pieces necessary for 220 production were already scrapped. Once we understand the cost to commission the new pieces, we'll make a survey to gauge the viability of the investment... We're hoping that everyone with a 220 camera (like me!) will show enough support to commission the new parts.

Like many things, this will need to wait a while. If things go our way this year, 2018 will be the "Year of Odd Formats" for FILM Ferrania.

flavio81 · Feb 3, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
We are certainly considering 220, but it will require an investment in our 120 finishing line. I asked Nicola about 220 long ago and he explained that our 120 line was designed to also produce 220 but that some "add-on" pieces necessary for 220 production were already scrapped. Once we understand the cost to commission the new pieces, we'll make a survey to gauge the viability of the investment... We're hoping that everyone with a 220 camera (like me!) will show enough support to commission the new parts.

Like many things, this will need to wait a while. If things go our way this year, 2018 will be the "Year of Odd Formats" for FILM Ferrania.

Sorry to hear that. Well, certainly just with 120 format many people will be happy. I would. I was just considering that perhaps introduction of 220 could help them in sales or create wider interest.

But as PE said:

Photo Engineer said:
Give the guys at Ferrania a break. They cannot be everything to everyone.

Looking forward to 2018, The Year of the Odd Film Formats!! Prepare those Kodak Medalists for Ferrania 620 film!

bvy · Feb 3, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
Like many things, this will need to wait a while. If things go our way this year, 2018 will be the "Year of Odd Formats" for FILM Ferrania.

I was going to mention 8x10 but decided not to.

Seriously, good news all around, guys. Congrats!

Prest_400 · Feb 3, 2017

Interesting, so ofc B&W is a preliminary step to colour... and what a nice way to put to use the P30 formula laying around the house! The advantage of the LRF is that not only has all the IP on different formulas, but the very same facilities used to produce them; which simplifies reformulation. That is, more or less what PE commented about producing films on different factories.

Efke's successor is in hands of ADOX, CHSII.

flavio81 said:
There is a mystique around the 120 backing paper that surprises me. Mystique as in "the paper costs more than the film" (ILFORD representative on APUG) or "only one provider makes the paper". It amazes me that in the whole forum i've seen so many comments regarding 120 backing as the most difficult thing to produce in 120 film.

FILM Ferrania said:
We are certainly considering 220, but it will require an investment in our 120 finishing line. I asked Nicola about 220 long ago and he explained that our 120 line was designed to also produce 220 but that some "add-on" pieces necessary for 220 production were already scrapped. Once we understand the cost to commission the new pieces, we'll make a survey to gauge the viability of the investment... We're hoping that everyone with a 220 camera (like me!) will show enough support to commission the new parts.

Like many things, this will need to wait a while. If things go our way this year, 2018 will be the "Year of Odd Formats" for FILM Ferrania.

Indeed 120 is more pivotal and 220 should be left for the future. I think 220 is a nice longer format for travel or other uses to get more frames/roll. Kodak and Fuji discontinued their 220 just a year apart and wonder what kind of common issue (aside of low demand) they may have found, and if the backing paper supplier change had to do with it. Good thing that when the time comes, you may be able to run sustainable 220 batches. (Maybe some C41 that flocks around Wedding photogs?).

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

railwayman3 said:
So have I ! A Rollei 126 SLR, and a "baby" Rolleiflex TLR 127 ( similar to the Yashica TLR?). I might start looking around for any more !

The used camera business is RIPE for disruption. In my personal opinion, the only place in the world with a viable base of used camera sellers is Japan.

An entrepreneurial person who loves old cameras and has access to a knowledgeable repairman could start buying up cameras that use the film types listed here: Dead Link Removed
Also slide and movie projectors, projection screens, accessories...

Build yourself a nice website with e-commerce (we use Squarespace and Shopify at the moment). Create social media channels. Work out global shipping and fulfillment (a real headache, but do-able).

There's a very good business opportunity for someone who takes a modern approach to the used business and reaches out worldwide.

My friend Kyle Depew has a solid head-start and is doing very good business, even if he focuses primarily on Polaroid cameras: Dead Link Removed

Just saying...

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

flavio81 said:
That's 11 countries and 22 brands. I mean, most of them surely made the paper themselves, i really wonder what it is that makes this paper so hard to source or get in 2017.

Yes, you would think it's easy, but it's not. Not at all.

And printing the numbers on the paper isn't the problem...

flavio81 · Feb 3, 2017

Prest_400 said:
(Maybe some C41 that flocks around Wedding photogs?).

Announcing Ferrania P42 Film

With real, true, honest speed of 1600 ISO, Ferrania P42 is the fastest black and white film in production, and is already the favorite of high-end Italian wedding photographers that want to keep the tonality, sharpness and resolution of medium format with the character of film grain usually only seen in smaller formats. Unlike competitor Delta 3200 (1250 ISO), Ferrania P42 uses a conventional grain structure, which recent market polls have shown is what photographers prefer whenever grain is to be featured.

The soft contrast of Ferrania P42 makes it able to keep the good tonality values even when pushed to 6400 speed, which enables medium format photographers to go beyond previous limits.

The grain character of Ferrania P42 has been described as "similar to Tri-X in look" while the tonality of Ferrania P42 has been reviewed as "not unlike the soft gradations of Ferrania P30, already a best seller."

P42 will be available starting January 2020 in 120 and 220 format, 70mm cartridges, and 4x5", 8x10" sheets.

Lachlan Young · Feb 3, 2017

flavio81 said:
Announcing Ferrania P42 Film

With real, true, honest speed of 1600 ISO, Ferrania P42 is the fastest black and white film in production, and is already the favorite of high-end Italian wedding photographers that want to keep the tonality, sharpness and resolution of medium format with the character of film grain usually only seen in smaller formats.

The soft contrast of Ferrania P42 makes it able to keep the good tonality values even when pushed to 6400 speed, which enables medium format photographers to go beyond previous limits.

The grain character of Ferrania P42 has been described as "similar to Tri-X in look" while the tonality of Ferrania P42 has been reviewed as "not unlike the soft gradations of Ferrania P30, already a best seller."

P42 will be available starting January 2020 in 120 and 220 format, 70mm cartridges, and 4x5", 5x7" and 8x10" sheets.

And you're going to bankroll the massive R&D effort this would entail?

flavio81 · Feb 3, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
Yes, you would think it's easy, but it's not. Not at all.

And printing the numbers on the paper isn't the problem...

I know you're overwhelmed by having to reply to many other crazy guys like me in other forums and Facebook, but if you have the time please do shed a light on the difficulties of 120 backing paper. I'm genuinely interested. Or it can be a special Update (on the website) when you finally sort this problem out!

RattyMouse · Feb 3, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
Come on you guys... You've got to allow us a tiny bit of marketing-speak! We do need to sell our products to people with varying degrees of expertise about film that often fall below the threshold of the average APUG user...

Plus it's not hype. As PE confirms, 5g/sqm is "on the high end" and the film IS made using original formula that was slightly updated in 1970 for production on the precision coater in the LRF.

Please understand, my comment, "not a very helpful phrase", was in response to my question about how soft is the P30 film. I asked this question and got back (not from you) a marketing phrase about jewellery.

I have no problems with that phrase simply to sell the film.

I will certainly buy some of this film once it is available.

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 3, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
When Nicola says "soft" he is referring to the depth and range of gray tones.

In fact, if the film is processed in D-96, the tonal curve is quite amazing with an extremely wide range of gray tones. Nicola's "horse" picture was processed in D-96. But D-96 is not a common developer in most labs and nearly impossible to purchase for "average" people.

Most of the test photos don't quite capture this because they were processed in various ways and scanned by our test labs. Some processing techniques were better than others - but it was a TEST to see what would happen. The factory received data from almost every single frame shot for the test, as well as processing info, and are making some adjustments this week to make the film easier to process with a variety of systems. (As I mentioned in another response, we're going to discuss this further next week).

That said, P30 35mm will remain in ALPHA until we find the right tweaks to make the film useable by "any photographer, any camera, any lab, anywhere". We're going to set up some forms on our site for those who want to feed information back to the factory once the ALPHA film is out in the wild. This data will be critical to save time in migrating the film out of ALPHA to the final version.

I would love to test some of this ALPHA film... see how she looks in Pyrocat-HD.

FILM Ferrania · Feb 3, 2017

flavio81 said:
I know you're overwhelmed by having to reply to many other crazy guys like me in other forums and Facebook, but if you have the time please do shed a light on the difficulties of 120 backing paper. I'm genuinely interested. Or it can be a special Update (on the website) when you finally sort this problem out!

Sorry to say, but this won't happen. We're not interested in discussing the business of third-party providers. They do what they need to do and complaining about any difficulties they may cause for us is simply inappropriate.

If we figure out a solution to make our own backing paper, we will certainly make a post or two about it!

Photo Engineer · Feb 3, 2017

Look at the problems that Kodak, Ilford and Fuji are having with backing papers. They all had it right when they made their own, but when they outsourced it to other companies, using their own formulas, the backing paper problems began. This is no easy task. Inks, black absorbing paper and paper itself must be each perfect for the job. Any slight error will ruin the paper and finally the film.

PE

Cholentpot · Feb 3, 2017

flavio81 said:
Thanks Dave for the replies!

Man, i've passed on so many interesting 126-film and 127-film machines! One was a Yashica TLR for 126 film that was mint and really cute!
Another was the Contaflex 126 model!

I have a Brownie Reflex Synchro from 1940, I think it takes 127. I just have to figure out how to get the shutter to play ball. I think it sticks.

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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