Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

twelvetone12 · Feb 2, 2017

Wow, this was an unexpected surprise!
After following all the updates I was not expecting the color film before the summer, but I think that sharing the preliminary BW is a terrific idea. It is also a proof that you are making something concrete. Cudos! Even if probably P30 will not become my primary BW film I'm getting some (and I still have some old-stock p30 around!), and now I can't wait for the color film. Well done!
Will it have the nice "Ferrania" border markings too?

Nzoomed · Feb 2, 2017

I think its also a very clever decision from Ferrania, as it demonstrates to the world that they are capable of producing film.
It also sends a clear message to the likes of Kodak that there is a market for such films and beating them to release a long forgotten film is a smart move, because they do intend to re-release some of their older B&W films by the looks.

But whats more important is probably the fact that they can get some extra income while they actually test and refine their coater after many years of disuse.

railwayman3 · Feb 2, 2017

A great and welcome surprise from Ferrania. I'll definitely be ordering some P30 in addition to retaining my color film reward later in the year.

twelvetone12 · Feb 2, 2017

Because ekfe had completely different and old coating equipment and the films need to be reformulated for modern machinery. AFAIK this is what Adox is doing with some films

darkroom_rookie · Feb 2, 2017

twelvetone12 said:
Because ekfe had completely different and old coating equipment (...)

And here it is sometime in 2016, in all its (former) glory, waiting to be towed away for one last time.

twelvetone12 · Feb 2, 2017

All that is very sad too bad the equipment could not be salvaged.

Nzoomed · Feb 2, 2017

darkroom_rookie said:
And here it is sometime in 2016, in all its (former) glory, waiting to be towed away for one last time.

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So sad to see all that scrapped equipment...

Chris Livsey · Feb 2, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Early methods of sensitizing silver left dead grains which were useless. These were called "high silver" or "silver rich" materials. As technology improved, the process for sensitizing became better and silver levels were decreased. As they were, grain went up but so did sharpness and thus, they made finer grains at the same speed. (following me so far?). Thus, today's films are finer grained but lower silver with better sharpness and equal or higher speed. Today, about 300 mg would equal 500 - 1000 in days gone bye (mg/ft square).

So, there it is simply.

PE

I do love the mix of Imperial and Metric in (mg/ft square)

A succinct explanation of "silver rich" thank you, could you just expand that logical development path of sensitisation progress with the role of crystal growth shapes which obviously interacts here to affect silver content and sensitivity as well? What contribution did that make to further silver content reduction relative to sensitisation?
Presumably the P30 will have a "conventional" crystal structure at the silver content level quoted as well as the presumed lower, to "modern" emulsions sensitisers?

Prest_400 · Feb 2, 2017

Nzoomed said:
I think its also a very clever decision from Ferrania, as it demonstrates to the world that they are capable of producing film.
It also sends a clear message to the likes of Kodak that there is a market for such films and beating them to release a long forgotten film is a smart move, because they do intend to re-release some of their older B&W films by the looks.

But whats more important is probably the fact that they can get some extra income while they actually test and refine their coater after many years of disuse.

Alessandro Serrao said:
Then why not buying the eFKe formulas and start making their emulsions again?

The Slow-Medium speed B&W market is getting crowded!
ADOX acquired ex-Ilford Ciba coating equipment in Marly, Switzerland and were on their way to manufacturing CHSII again, but on the new facilities. Essentially it is a reformulation-approximation of the Efke original products. Mirko has commented that it was difficult to break even on some products and they had an Agfa APX400 substitute but that is on hold because of final market pricing.
Quite interesting that in mountainous regions of centre Europe we have two small film (and Paper) factories. Good thing that they will be flexible.

Really sad to see Efke's machinery on the scrap heap, on the other side, the LRF was abandoned and now put to good use.

Agulliver · Feb 2, 2017

In the video, Nicola Baldini looks thrilled....he really looks enthusiastic.

I know some people will say "This is just another medium speed B&W film" but Ferrania P30 is legendary...it's not really like anything else on the market today except *perhaps* Adox Silvermax.

Once it goes on sale, I'm buying some. And I hope it remains available after the production of colour reversal film is started. The test photos look beautiful. And now we know the boys and girls at the LRF...and their equipment, can produce photographic film.

Another discontinued film returns.

RattyMouse · Feb 2, 2017

Nzoomed said:
I think its also a very clever decision from Ferrania, as it demonstrates to the world that they are capable of producing film.
It also sends a clear message to the likes of Kodak that there is a market for such films and beating them to release a long forgotten film is a smart move, because they do intend to re-release some of their older B&W films by the looks.

But whats more important is probably the fact that they can get some extra income while they actually test and refine their coater after many years of disuse.

This P30 film was described in the video as "soft". Anyone know exactly what that means? Is the lack of layers mean that this film is not capable of making images in the same way that current monochrome films can? I'm not sure how much I would use a film that was excessively soft.

flavio81 · Feb 2, 2017

Nzoomed said:
OK, that is interesting to know.

Do you have any idea why the high silver films such as Efke were so popular?
There has not been any other manufacturer making films with such high silver content (probably for the same reasons you mention) for quite some time.
I believe Efke had high contrast, so perhaps this is what people liked, but I expect others will know more who have shot the film themselves.

I fully believe in what PE wrote. Modern methods require less silver to achieve similar results thus a "higher silver content" is not a guarantee of anything.

If Efke film was popular and loved it is because of other characteristics, and maybe "silver rich" was a side effect of the formulation, not the cause of the good qualities of the film.

That being said, i also have full trust in Ferania's engineers, Corrado Balestra & friends, that they are making a film that looks good. So if a film looks beautiful, i don't care if it's silver rich or silver poor or if the grain is old style or tabular, if it has triacetate or polyester base, etc.

They have worked so hard for two years, i'm sure that they wouldn't want to waste the effort of coating their FIRST film with a fornulation that was sub-par or unexciting. And maybe the original recipe of P30 needed higher silver content because of the times it was designed. Or maybe it is a redesign in which the engineers have used this to an advantage in some way.

Whatever it is, the italians are people with great aesthetic taste that shows in their food, movies, clothing, architecture, cars, and a long standing passion for sophisticated engineering (Ferrari, Ducati, etc), so i would expect that these qualities are also going to permeate through the film products.

So congratulations to Ferrania and the new P30! Where each frame is a piece of jewerly.

Peter Schrager · Feb 2, 2017

YEAH FERRANIA!! BRING IT ON...!!

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 2, 2017

Nzoomed said:
because they do intend to re-release some of their older B&W films by the looks.

Really?? which ones?

flavio81 · Feb 2, 2017

Andrew O'Neill said:
Really?? which ones?

I found this by googling: (old ferrania films that appear on my google search):

Ferrania P3 (1950s)
Ferrania P30 80ASA
Ferrania P33 160ASA (early 1960s)
Ferrania P36 320ASA

all panchromatic

Now, the business of FILM Ferrania is color, but I think they could have some commercial success if they package P30 film in 126 format. There are tons of Instamatic and 126 format cameras out there for really cheap, and anyone can develop 126 since the film width is 35mm.

Meyer Trioplan · Feb 2, 2017

flavio81 said:
I found this by googling: (old ferrania films that appear on my google search):

Ferrania P3 (1950s)
Ferrania P30 80ASA
Ferrania P33 160ASA (early 1960s)
Ferrania P36 320ASA

all panchromatic

Now, the business of FILM Ferrania is color, but I think they could have some commercial success if they package P30 film in 126 format. There are tons of Instamatic and 126 format cameras out there for really cheap, and anyone can develop 126 since the film width is 35mm.

I would love another supplier of 127 film and since Ferrania has a history as a maker of 127 cameras, would be a perfect fit. Lots of the old cameras like my Bell and Howell are actually set up to optimize exposure on 80ASA film.

Photo Engineer · Feb 2, 2017

High silver was touted because of its so-called high image quality compared to some modern films. It is nothing more than a marketing issue for some that cannot do the correct sensitization. In this case, we know that Ferrania can do it (proper sensitization) so they are doing it for speed and grain to get very high quality images rather than some companies that can't do it.

I cannot do it and so my emulsions need higher silver than comparable Kodak emulsions. The correct sensitization is quite secret and very difficult. I just use plain old sulfur or sulfur + gold. Modern sensitizations use many esoteric chemicals.

The ratio is often as high as 50% and as low as 10%. If it goes too high, you get pepper grain accompanying the low speed. Dead grains and pepper grain are not necessarily related. They can appear separately. Pepper grain is an issue of mixing or adding the ingredients when making the emulsion, or not having enough or the right type of gelatin. Pepper grains appear as black dots on the film everywhere. Larger grains are those that tend to be dead. One manufacturer had that problem on some of their film.

PE

Photo Engineer · Feb 2, 2017

Chris Livsey said:
I do love the mix of Imperial and Metric in (mg/ft square)

A succinct explanation of "silver rich" thank you, could you just expand that logical development path of sensitisation progress with the role of crystal growth shapes which obviously interacts here to affect silver content and sensitivity as well? What contribution did that make to further silver content reduction relative to sensitisation?
Presumably the P30 will have a "conventional" crystal structure at the silver content level quoted as well as the presumed lower, to "modern" emulsions sensitisers?

pAg or vAg (two similar measurements like pH) were found to be the controlling factors. A chart of grain shape vs pAg by Herb Wilgus is in my book. Basically, a new method of controlling fog growth with organic chemicals are used to control the latest chemical sensitization methods. One is Tetra Aza Indene and the other is Phenyl Mercapto Tetrazole. I describe TAI and PMT in my book as well. They are used to either increase sensitivity or retard fog.

PE

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 2, 2017

Thanks flavio81

flavio81 · Feb 2, 2017

Andrew O'Neill said:
Thanks flavio81

You're welcome. More info:
Most of those films (at least P30) were made and designed by Ferrania before the aqcuisition of Ferrania by 3M (1964).

In 1948 Ferrania had the second 'monopack' color negative film in history (after Agfa): Ferraniacolor with what was ASA 10 or 16 if i recall correctly. First movie made with this film was "Totó a colori", 1952. The actors must have suffered working with a film that slow!

3M invested in Ferrania because (i guess) their plan was to compete against Kodak (3M was already a big company by then and was leader in magnetic tape production as well as other types of tape. 3M is an amazing company!)
3M had acquired Dynachrome previously. Dynachrome was founded by ex-Kodak engineers and had a film that was Kodachrome (K12?) compatible, and in contemporary reviews this film held its own against the Kodak, Agfa, and Ansco products.

After 1964 i understood that some of this Dynachrome (3M Dynachrome) was made by Ferrania as well, so i guess Ferrania also made Kodachrome-compatible film.

During early 80s it seems that 3M wanted to also enter the professional field and a few innovative films were released that broke the 'speed' barrier: 3M ColorSlide 1000 and 3M ColorSlide 640T, which were the fastest silde films available. Alas they must have marketed them in a very poor way because the contemporary film reviews i've seen of 640T were good. With their tape division as well they had another problem -- they were the clear technical leaders but they were not profiting from the business, or so i've read. By the way, AGFA was also a competitor to 3M on the professional audio tape segment.

Later 3M split off the imaging division to IMATION and i guess that the corresponding Imation Chrome was aimed more as an amateur, low cost, good E6 film. Which is what I would love to have now.

So the guys at FILM Ferrania must own right now a lot of intellectual property - lots of formulas, etc.

I've read that Fellini's "8 1/2" was filmed on Ferrania P30 stock. It would be nice to see if somebody finds out a list of films made in Ferrania stock.

Nzoomed · Feb 2, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
High silver was touted because of its so-called high image quality compared to some modern films. It is nothing more than a marketing issue for some that cannot do the correct sensitization. In this case, we know that Ferrania can do it (proper sensitization) so they are doing it for speed and grain to get very high quality images rather than some companies that can't do it.

I cannot do it and so my emulsions need higher silver than comparable Kodak emulsions. The correct sensitization is quite secret and very difficult. I just use plain old sulfur or sulfur + gold. Modern sensitizations use many esoteric chemicals.

The ratio is often as high as 50% and as low as 10%. If it goes too high, you get pepper grain accompanying the low speed. Dead grains and pepper grain are not necessarily related. They can appear separately. Pepper grain is an issue of mixing or adding the ingredients when making the emulsion, or not having enough or the right type of gelatin. Pepper grains appear as black dots on the film everywhere. Larger grains are those that tend to be dead. One manufacturer had that problem on some of their film.

PE

That makes complete sense.

So from what I gather, films such as Efke were possibly quite primitive by modern standards (they were using old adox formulas IIRC) this would make sense if it was still using older sensitizers that modern films had long since moved away from.

Im interested to hear from those who have shot Efke themselves, but perhaps the side effects from the high silver content was what people liked about that film? I believe it was very high contrast due to the silver content.

Either way P30 looks impressive and brings a great new film to the table.

MattKing · Feb 2, 2017

It is a myth. "high silver" doesn't give you contrast in a continuous tone film.
I expect that the myth arose because the lithography films - not continuous tone, but rather just black and white and used in the printing industry - did require a lot of silver to do their job.

Nzoomed · Feb 2, 2017

MattKing said:
It is a myth. "high silver" doesn't give you contrast in a continuous tone film.
I expect that the myth arose because the lithography films - not continuous tone, but rather just black and white and used in the printing industry - did require a lot of silver to do their job.

OK, so the whole silver thing with Efke was purley marketing?

I know a few people were saddened when Efke closed, and all i would hear from them was about it being the last plant that made "high" silver content film lol

Nzoomed · Feb 2, 2017

twelvetone12 said:
Even if probably P30 will not become my primary BW film I'm getting some (and I still have some old-stock p30 around!), and now I can't wait for the color film. Well done!

Thats cool that you still have some old stock P30!
Do you know when it was last made produced? Im guessing some time in the 1970's? I think some time after 3M took over that they dropped all B&W films IIRC.

Would be interesting to shoot both the old and new and make comparisons

Photo Engineer · Feb 2, 2017

I've shown here, a scan of a large sheet of EFKE film (11x14) that shows regular fluctuations in coating density. This carried throughout their product line due to coating machine problems. This irregular coating showed up as light and dark fluctuations in images, but was not easy to spot in 35mm.

PE

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

twelvetone12

Nzoomed

railwayman3

twelvetone12

darkroom_rookie

twelvetone12

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Chris Livsey

Prest_400

Agulliver

RattyMouse

flavio81

Peter Schrager

Andrew O'Neill

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Meyer Trioplan

Photo Engineer

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Andrew O'Neill

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flavio81

Nzoomed

MattKing

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Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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