Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

Diapositivo · May 27, 2016

StoneNYC said:
FILMferrania's hope is to break into the movie industry film market first and foremost because that's where the money is for color film.

If I remember well, their first planned product is a slide film. That is going to be sold as roll film and as Super8 and 16mm.
That would mean their first step would be cater to the photographic market, and to the amateur movie market, filling an almost-empty niche.
I guess (and I hope I will be proved wrong) they will not be able to compete with Fujifilm as far as quality is concerned, so presumably Ferrania will occupy the lower end, and the niche impossible-to-find product, while Fujifilm will concentrate on their quality product for a larger market. That should last for a while.

Their next move would be to move to negative colour film, but they made clear, in their statements, that they aim at supporting laboratories and that they consider home-development a crucial way to develop this market. That means, probably, marketing chemistry, supporting home developers, making workshops, marketing support devices (maybe a Jobo-like things? who knows!). But they said clearly they consider home development crucial for the survival of film and I think they are absolutely right.

In my opinion for some years Ferrania will concentrate on niche products, and they will not try to compete directly with Fuji and Kodak on the professional market (such as the movie industry) if not in those niche markets where there is no competition (such as high-speed reversal film). And I personally think this would be a sound route of action. I guess it will be easier to see them producing 126 cartridges than movie industry film, during the first years of production.

If this effort ends up as an industrial success, every road is open for further expansion.

MartinCrabtree · May 27, 2016

I believe they'll be able to compete with Fuji from a quality standpoint. of course it will take time. That is why we wait. At what price is the 800 pound gorilla.

Nzoomed · May 27, 2016

Diapositivo said:
If I remember well, their first planned product is a slide film. That is going to be sold as roll film and as Super8 and 16mm.
That would mean their first step would be cater to the photographic market, and to the amateur movie market, filling an almost-empty niche.
I guess (and I hope I will be proved wrong) they will not be able to compete with Fujifilm as far as quality is concerned, so presumably Ferrania will occupy the lower end, and the niche impossible-to-find product, while Fujifilm will concentrate on their quality product for a larger market. That should last for a while.

Their next move would be to move to negative colour film, but they made clear, in their statements, that they aim at supporting laboratories and that they consider home-development a crucial way to develop this market. That means, probably, marketing chemistry, supporting home developers, making workshops, marketing support devices (maybe a Jobo-like things? who knows!). But they said clearly they consider home development crucial for the survival of film and I think they are absolutely right.

In my opinion for some years Ferrania will concentrate on niche products, and they will not try to compete directly with Fuji and Kodak on the professional market (such as the movie industry) if not in those niche markets where there is no competition (such as high-speed reversal film). And I personally think this would be a sound route of action. I guess it will be easier to see them producing 126 cartridges than movie industry film, during the first years of production.

If this effort ends up as an industrial success, every road is open for further expansion.

Yes i agree with what you are saying.
If 6 step E6 can be done at home (affordably) them im all in!
Hopefully we will see some low cost machines available to process low volumes of film.

I think their long term goal is for motion pictures.

Lets face it, their Solaris negative films were actually really good. Not that im a big shooter of negative films myself, but i cant fault theirs, yes it has a different tone to what we are used to, but i like it, when they eventually reintroduce solaris and get that to the market, im expecting they will look at motion picture films (colour and B&W) remember that these guys are film makers by trade and its in their interests to shoot cine film.

Im sure they have the ability to make an ECN compatible film based on the chemistry used for solaris, much in the same way that Ektar and Portra were derived from the same technology in Vision3 stock.

I dont see this happening in the short term, as they themselves said that market is already filled (by kodak presumably, as they are the only ones left) but the day may very well come that there is no motion picture film left, and im sure they will fill that gap if, when the day comes.

I think in the short term, we will see a good range of scotchchrome based reversal films come to the market first, with continued refinement, then we will shortly see solaris reintroduced, and then medium term expect to see a modern P30 reintroduced.

Photo Engineer · May 27, 2016

Nzoomed, how much did you contribute to their kickstart program?

If you did, in any amount, then you can really be "a part" of this.

PE

Nzoomed · May 28, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Nzoomed, how much did you contribute to their kickstart program?

If you did, in any amount, then you can really be "a part" of this.

PE

I ordered one of the first 500 rolls and then i paid them a separate amount for some more rolls of the first batch.
I think i will get about 10 rolls all up from memory!

I think most of us are very patiently waiting for the good news that the first roll has come off the production line!
I dont think I will shoot my numbered roll. Its too valuable as it is. Cant wait to shoot the rest of the stuff though.

Photo Engineer · May 28, 2016

Sorry, that was meant to be a rhetorical question. But, thanks for the answer.

PE

Ian Grant · May 28, 2016

Diapositivo said:
I guess (and I hope I will be proved wrong) they will not be able to compete with Fujifilm as far as quality is concerned, so presumably Ferrania will occupy the lower end, and the niche impossible-to-find product, while Fujifilm will concentrate on their quality product for a larger market. That should last for a while.

I remember them trying to break into the professional market here in the UK in the early 1980's and being given some free samples of film and paper the materials were excellent and on a par with Kodak and Fuji. I think the problem was that by then Fuji were already ahead of Kodak here in terms of sales and it wasn't going to happen, their films were far better than Konica/Sakura.

Ilford also tried to get back into the colour market around the same time, I have an unprocessed roll of Ilfochrome which was re-badged Sakura E6 film, I wasn't very impressed with the roll I had processed.

My younger sister would only use Ferrania film, sold here in the UK as 3M or Scotch but also re-labelled by Boots and other companies.

Ian

Nzoomed · May 28, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Sorry, that was meant to be a rhetorical question. But, thanks for the answer.

PE

Thats OK, was kind of wondering if it was lol

cmacd123 · May 28, 2016

Nzoomed said:
I think their long term goal is for motion pictures.

Lets face it, their Solaris negative films were actually really good. Not that im a big shooter of negative films myself, but i cant fault theirs, yes it has a different tone to what we are used to, but i like it, when they eventually reintroduce solaris and get that to the market, im expecting they will look at motion picture films (colour and B&W) remember that these guys are film makers by trade and its in their interests to shoot cine film.

For a while Kodak produced a version of ektachrome as both 35mm and 16mm Movie film. First it was a 64 tugsten version, and then when the still film that that was based on went away, they switched to making a 100D (7285)

Once Kodak stopped all ektachrome, 7285 also went away. the ferrania Guys plan A was to get the converting machinery from the closed plant move it to a low cost part of the EU and use it to convert FujiChrome to Motion picture sizes. they were persuaded instead to go all the way and execute the downsizing plan that had been drawn up between the time 3M spun off their media Division (Imation) and the time the plant finally closed.

While nothing is impossible, making an ECN compatible Movie Negative would be a major bit of engineering, More so as 3m did not make any REM-Jet Film. I am not sure if one could make a workable Movie negative without rem-jet. Fuji's first ECN style film did not have a back coating but the second version did.

Also pro movie film work flows tend to lean on the KeyKode system. (bar coded latent image footage numbers) that allow video transfer and editing in the video domain. 3M got out of movie film long before that system came into place, so ferrania would either have to build new signing equipment or get another vendor like filmotec.de to finish their movie film.

the keycode is proably not as much of a worry with the 16mm Colour reversal stock. As the main users are music videos and film students.

Nzoomed · May 28, 2016

Ian Grant said:
I remember them trying to break into the professional market here in the UK in the early 1980's and being given some free samples of film and paper the materials were excellent and on a par with Kodak and Fuji. I think the problem was that by then Fuji were already ahead of Kodak here in terms of sales and it wasn't going to happen, their films were far better than Konica/Sakura.

Ilford also tried to get back into the colour market around the same time, I have an unprocessed roll of Ilfochrome which was re-badged Sakura E6 film, I wasn't very impressed with the roll I had processed.

My younger sister would only use Ferrania film, sold here in the UK as 3M or Scotch but also re-labelled by Boots and other companies.

Ian

I dont think it was an inferior brand at all, yes the very early 3M colour stuff was nothing fancy, but their R&D appeared to put out some very high quality professional products.
I just think that with Kodak and Fuji having such a dominant market, that Ferrania had alot of competition to try and break through, nonetheless they were still producing film up to 2009 which says alot, since even the likes of Kodak were having trouble at the same time.

Down Under · May 28, 2016

Please, Ferrania, I am now almost 70. In my very young days, I used some of your product. A long, long time ago...

I hope I live long enough to see your new products on the market.

Tongue-in-cheek seriously...

If your new goodies, if and when, are as great as the originals, everyone will be very happy with them.

Nzoomed · May 29, 2016

cmacd123 said:
For a while Kodak produced a version of ektachrome as both 35mm and 16mm Movie film. First it was a 64 tugsten version, and then when the still film that that was based on went away, they switched to making a 100D (7285)

Once Kodak stopped all ektachrome, 7285 also went away. the ferrania Guys plan A was to get the converting machinery from the closed plant move it to a low cost part of the EU and use it to convert FujiChrome to Motion picture sizes. they were persuaded instead to go all the way and execute the downsizing plan that had been drawn up between the time 3M spun off their media Division (Imation) and the time the plant finally closed.

While nothing is impossible, making an ECN compatible Movie Negative would be a major bit of engineering, More so as 3m did not make any REM-Jet Film. I am not sure if one could make a workable Movie negative without rem-jet. Fuji's first ECN style film did not have a back coating but the second version did.

Also pro movie film work flows tend to lean on the KeyKode system. (bar coded latent image footage numbers) that allow video transfer and editing in the video domain. 3M got out of movie film long before that system came into place, so ferrania would either have to build new signing equipment or get another vendor like filmotec.de to finish their movie film.

the keycode is proably not as much of a worry with the 16mm Colour reversal stock. As the main users are music videos and film students.

OK, well we know they plan to sell reversal film for motion picture use anyway.
Whats the deal with remjet backing anyway? Does it have better anti-halation properties than the regular anti-halation backing found on regular films?

I read somewhere that remjet also served as a lubricant for running through the cameras with its carbon content.
However, a fair amount of non-remjet films were used for motion pictures such as you mention with ektachrome, so i dont know if its even really necessary.

Ferrania will have a very special niche market for cine films anyway, as films such as three kings were shot on ektachrome and cross processed in C41 for example.

Im sure we will see some film makers experiment with this perhaps, who knows?
As you say, no reason why keycode cant be added by a third party if necessary.

If the demand arises for ECN type films again, well im sure they may well look into it and probably have enough expertise to engineer it if they felt its going to be profitable. Of course I wouldnt expect this for some years.

Arctic amateur · May 29, 2016

The film transport is more than six times faster in a 35mm camera shooting 24 fps than in a super-8 camera shooting 18 fps.

pdeeh · May 29, 2016

I have just happened upon an epithet new to me, but one that does seem beautifully apposite for some of the "contributions" to this thread.

It is " Ultracrepidarianism" ...

Photo Engineer · May 29, 2016

Rem Jet is a powerful anti static agent, which prevents static in the high speed movement of film through MP cameras.

PE

pbromaghin · May 29, 2016

A question that has nagged me for some time - Why does B&W cine film not need Rem Jet?

cmacd123 · May 29, 2016

pbromaghin said:
A question that has nagged me for some time - Why does B&W cine film not need Rem Jet?

I am sure that it could use some, but the process was designed a long time before rem-jet was invented. There are Lubricant/anti-staic coatings on the back of some B&W films, but they are transparent.

see for example this description of Double-X 5222/7222
http://motion.kodak.com/KodakGCG/up...ducts/Camera_Films/5222/Resources/5222_SS.pdf

"
Base
EASTMAN DOUBLE-X Negative Film has a gray acetate
safety base. The back side of the base contains an
anti-static layer with lubricant.
"

If you look at the data sheet for N74, it also shows an Anti-static layer on the back....
http://www.filmotec.de/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/V-I-TI-N74plus-e.pdf

pbromaghin · May 29, 2016

Charles, thank you.

FILM Ferrania · May 30, 2016

Hello all,

I've just finished reading through the pages in this thread since I last checked it... And I'm fresh off my weekly call with our founder, Nicola Baldini.

To all who have doubts about us, I can only assure you that things are most certainly moving forward (albeit slowly) at the LRF. Some preliminary testing has been done and it became clear that more work needed to be done on the infrastructure before we could coat.

Nicola has just written an update that explains what has been going on since the team returned in February, and we'll be posting it for our Kickstarter backers in the next few days. I'll post a link here as well.

I'm assuming that many of you folks here on APUG are at least somewhat aware of the difficulties that can arise in firing up a factory that has been dormant for 5 years. To be honest, it's very un-sexy stuff to talk about, and for fear of boring people to tears, or accidentally "crying wolf" about some issue or another - we have kept our heads down and focused on ironing out all the thousands of details in the factory, as well as everything required to start selling.

The good news is that the light at the end of the tunnel is growing brighter by the day - and everyone is in a mad dash to get everything ready for production before August (when Italy shuts down for all intents and purposes).

This is not to say that we don't have some remaining hurdles that could cause further issues - but the latest word from Nicola is that after a solid 18 months of disappointment and delays, the team is quite positive and optimistic now that the end of this brutal phase is in sight.

Keep your eyes peeled for the update in the next few days!

twelvetone12 · May 30, 2016

FILM Ferrania said:
To be honest, it's very un-sexy stuff to talk about, and for fear of boring people to tears

Actually it's not! or maybe it's not for engineers like me... At least I'm very curious of the technicalities of what is going on - not because I fear the project will not succeed, but really because I'm genuinely interested in what is going under the hood.

Nzoomed · May 30, 2016

Thanks for the update Dave!
Things are starting to get exciting no doubt. And yes, i would expect numerous unforeseen issues to arise, but its good to see that progress is being made.
Me and others are very curious of technicalities as twelvetone12 mentioned.

Diapositivo · May 31, 2016

I am myself also curious about un-sexy stuff (in this specific case) although I understand that sometimes it is better to keep silent in order to avoid unwarranted alarms and unjustified pessimism.

Ovidius teaches women this lesson in the "Art of Love" (Third Book, 209) about not letting the lover enter the room when the making up is performed:

Don't let your lover surprise you when your weapons are not ready;
Craft (of making oneself up) is useful only when it is well concealed.
Who would ever like a face all splattered with must of wine
that trickles down the cleavage of the breast?
And doesn't oesypum stinks, even though it comes from Athens,
this oil extracted from the soiled hair of the sheep?
Neither do I advise you to publicly use deer marrow,
or to brush your teeth in the public sight.
Those are things that give beauty, but are not beautiful to see.
And yet, ugly in the making, they are beatiful once made.

[Non tamen expositas mensa deprendat amator
Pyxidas: ars faciem dissimulata iuvat.
Quem non offendat toto faex inlita vultu,
Cum fluit in tepidos pondere lapsa sinus?
Oesypa quid redolent quamvis mittatur Athenis
Demptus ab inmundo vellere sucus ovis.
Nec coram mixtas cervae sumpsisse medullas,
Nec coram dentes defricuisse probem;
Ista dabunt formam, sed erunt deformia visu:
Multaque, dum fiunt, turpia, facta placent;]

StoneNYC · May 31, 2016

Unsexy stuff in a 5 year abandoned building, not hard to imagine.

Let's see...

Abandoned = vagrants and vandalizers

Leaks of water in roof = mold, rusted parts, plant growth, dust, dirt, grime, fungus.

All "infecting" the machinery.

Lots of cleaning, buffing, sanitizing, re-machining to-far-gone parts.

None of it sounds positive and best to keep the actual details sort of to a minimum as too much can give people wrong impression about the final capabilities of the company.

Viva FILMferrania

AgX · May 31, 2016

Echoes said:
PE, I'm curious, how many rolls came out per day when Kodak was coating 24/7?

Out of the several coating lines Agfa had, just one alone had a nominal output of nearly one billion rolls per year.

I guess that makes clear the problem of today.

cmacd123 · May 31, 2016

lets see - most of the coating machines are in the range of 36-58 inches wide. lets say 48 inch so 1200mm wide. so if the coating is perfect that is 34 lengths of 35mm film.

A master roll is 5000ft. that gives you 170,000 feet of 35mm film. a 36 exposure roll is about 5.5 feet. so each master roll gives you 30,900 36 exposure rolls.

Now 100 ft a minute is SLOW we are told but at that speed we could make that master roll in an hour (with time to spare for set-up) PE has mentioned some of Kodaks machines making that much in 10-15 minutes or less)

run a 7 hours shift, and we are making enough film for (7* 31000) 217,000 rolls. Close to a 1/4 million.

5 days a week and 50 weeks a year, 54 million rolls. (roughly) (I was very generous in my rounding off)

AgX probably was running a much faster machine.

BUT this is the problem everyone is facing. to meet the market the machine is running at a fraction of its capacity. using a 16 inch wide machine is probably not such a wild idea. 400mm wide film yields 10 or 11 rolls. (stick to 10 to avoid the selvages) now the output is closer to 15 million rolls a year. Still a lot.

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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