Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

FILM Ferrania · Aug 24, 2018

tih said:
What they are is a group of amateurs (in the literal sense of the word: someone who does what they do because they love to do it) who are willing to pour their time, effort, and money into a damn near impossible project, in the hope that they can resurrect something truly worthwhile.

I thank you very much for the sentiment of your post - and it's true that our project is a passion project that was begun with the sincere hope of resurrecting something truly worthwhile.

But to be fair, our factory team is comprised of entirely professional people, not amateurs. They hold advanced degrees and patents and worked for Ferrania when it was still the 4th largest manufacturer in the world.

The reason we may appear to be amateurs is because what we are doing is truly unprecedented. There is no manual. We have no peers we can look to for clues.

So, at the end of the day, there is a bit of "making it up as we go along" that is built into some parts of what we are doing - and I can see where this can be mistaken for amateurism.

FILM Ferrania · Aug 24, 2018

Wolfeye said:
*sigh*

Still no interest in their B&W film. They missed their chance to have me as a customer when I bit on the E-6 bait and switch. I doubt with Kodak getting back into slide film there'll be any market for their E-6 offering. But I amuse myself greatly by even typing "their E-6 offering"

There was no bait and switch.

I really don't know how we can explain it any better than we have - again and again - over the last few years.

We had a window of opportunity to fire up the machines and make what they made before being shut down. We had the materials. We had a crew. We documented the lead-up on our website and we had everything in place to produce a single relatively large batch of color reversal. We had converting lined up. We had even ordered packaging and established a warehouse that would ship everything.

That window was taken from us - plain and simple - and it nearly killed us entirely.

Coming back from that required an entirely different strategy - and by that I mean the new strategy was both legally and financially required.

If you really think all of the problems we have had are the result of some elaborate and premeditated bait-and-switch ruse, then you give us far too much credit.

removedacct1 · Aug 24, 2018

FILM Ferrania said:
Hopefully a bit more than 100 per day. But it will all be single rolls of 36 exposures. And 120. We're determined not to relaunch until we have 35mm AND 120.

Bulk rolls will eventually be added to the product roster, but not until we've increased production significantly.

I very much enjoyed getting to shoot a roll of P30 and I sincerely look forward to working with it again, especially in 120 rolls. You have my respect and support 100%. I hope things proceed without further problems! You are doing a fine thing for film photography.

peter k. · Aug 24, 2018

++10 YES!

tih · Aug 24, 2018

FILM Ferrania said:
But to be fair, our factory team is comprised of entirely professional people, not amateurs.

Of course - and I most certainly did not mean to downplay that. They're both, it seems to me: they're highly educated people who have a large amount of valuable professional experience making photographic materials -- but they're also willing to go way out of their depth in all the other aspects of running Ferrania, precisely because they're driven by passion, not greed, making them true amateurs. Again, I use the word in the literal sense: an amateur is someone who's driven by his love of the work, as opposed to the professional, who works for money.

faberryman · Aug 24, 2018

tih said:
Of course - and I most certainly did not mean to downplay that. They're both, it seems to me: they're highly educated people who have a large amount of valuable professional experience making photographic materials -- but they're also willing to go way out of their depth in all the other aspects of running Ferrania, precisely because they're driven by passion, not greed, making them true amateurs. Again, I use the word in the literal sense: an amateur is someone who's driven by his love of the work, as opposed to the professional, who works for money.

Don't tell the Italian government that Ferrania is not a commercial enterprise or they will lose all their funding and support.

railwayman3 · Aug 26, 2018

Kodak seems to still be plodding along steadily with Ektachrome, and, I am very much concerned that, once this comes out, hopefully at a reasonable price, it will kill Ferrania stone dead. A few enthusiasts (myself included) might try Ferraniachrome, but I cannot see sufficient users buying this regularly to generate enough money to support the ongoing enterprise, whether we define this as a commercial operation or a labour-of-love. Sorry.

fdonadio · Aug 26, 2018

railwayman3 said:
Kodak seems to still be plodding along steadily with Ektachrome, and, I am very much concerned that, once this comes out, hopefully at a reasonable price, it will kill Ferrania stone dead.

Maybe it will kill Ferraniachrome, maybe not. Maybe the market isn’t ready for three players in slide film.

But I don’t see Ferrania offering only color slide film at any point in the future. They currently offer P30 and I doubt they would kill this product once they start making Ferraniachrome.

We have a bunch of companies making black and white negative film and I don’t see any single one “killing” any other.

cmacd123 · Aug 26, 2018

Ferrania has a bit of an Ace up their sleeve in that they can in theory make small enough batches that they may be able to resurrect some of the Higher speed Slide film, that Kodak and Fuji cannot make at a profit. their are several different formulas that 3M made at one time.

I am also wondering if the road to colour may yet include another B&W formula using many layers to perfect the multilevel coating.

FILM Ferrania · Aug 26, 2018

railwayman3 said:
Kodak seems to still be plodding along steadily with Ektachrome, and, I am very much concerned that, once this comes out, hopefully at a reasonable price, it will kill Ferrania stone dead. A few enthusiasts (myself included) might try Ferraniachrome, but I cannot see sufficient users buying this regularly to generate enough money to support the ongoing enterprise, whether we define this as a commercial operation or a labour-of-love. Sorry.

I've seen a number of people who echo this same line of reasoning:
"If (other company) decides to make (product similar to yours), then you're dead."

I do understand how and why people might find this statement logical. This logic may apply to some products, but I really don't think it's true of the film market.
For all involved, and in every way, a robust and dynamic market is better than a stagnant or shrinking market.
As the saying goes: "a rising tide lifts all boats"

Plus, we're already proven that we are able to survive on practically nothing.

MattKing · Aug 26, 2018

FILM Ferrania said:
Plus, we're already proven that we are able to survive on practically nothing

Just a suggestion - this may not be a good thing to advertise!

Prof_Pixel · Aug 26, 2018

cmacd123 said:
Ferrania has a bit of an Ace up their sleeve in that they can in theory make small enough batches ...

A VERY good point! That's Kodak's Achilles heel - they are equipped to make LOTS of something and it's not clear they can be successful in making a little of something.

Nzoomed · Aug 26, 2018

Another question for Dave, regarding super8 film:
Is it possible you would have the means to produce sound stripped sound super8 film?
This is something lacking from Kodak's end, and if possible to produce would get you a good customer base with all the super8 shooters who cant use their super8 sound cameras anymore.

Berkeley Mike · Aug 26, 2018

Any film manufacturer participating in the film today has had to scale down to accommodate today's much smaller market. Capacities have to be maintained at a certain level to make a profit. Splitting off resources to manufacture a product with a more limited usage in a market that is already feeling limited usage is less likely in that model.

RattyMouse · Aug 27, 2018

FILM Ferrania said:
For all involved, and in every way, a robust and dynamic market is better than a stagnant or shrinking market.
As the saying goes: "a rising tide lifts all boats"

It's truly hard to imagine a more stagnant market than the E6 market. If a competitor sells 10,000 rolls of film, that's 10,000 less sales for Ferrania. I cannot believe that such a loss in sales would be insignificant to Ferrania. The only thing to truly hope for is that the long expected Fuji exit from the E6 market happens as soon as possible.

Even if there is growth in E6 (which I dont believe there is), it is extraordinarily tepid, and not even close to being proven to have traction.

I'm an original supporter of the kickstarter effort so do not make such comments lightly.

Harry Callahan · Aug 27, 2018

railwayman3 said:
Kodak seems to still be plodding along steadily with Ektachrome, and, I am very much concerned that, once this comes out, hopefully at a reasonable price, it will kill Ferrania stone dead. A few enthusiasts (myself included) might try Ferraniachrome, but I cannot see sufficient users buying this regularly to generate enough money to support the ongoing enterprise, whether we define this as a commercial operation or a labour-of-love. Sorry.

I don´t think this will happen.

Nzoomed · Aug 27, 2018

RattyMouse said:
It's truly hard to imagine a more stagnant market than the E6 market. If a competitor sells 10,000 rolls of film, that's 10,000 less sales for Ferrania. I cannot believe that such a loss in sales would be insignificant to Ferrania. The only thing to truly hope for is that the long expected Fuji exit from the E6 market happens as soon as possible.

Even if there is growth in E6 (which I dont believe there is), it is extraordinarily tepid, and not even close to being proven to have traction.

I'm an original supporter of the kickstarter effort so do not make such comments lightly.

I hope I can still shoot Kodak, Fuji and of course Ferrania!
I like all the E6 offerings, and would like to be able to enjoy all of them for what they offer.

RattyMouse · Aug 27, 2018

Nzoomed said:
I hope I can still shoot Kodak, Fuji and of course Ferrania!
I like all the E6 offerings, and would like to be able to enjoy all of them for what they offer.

Nobody wants to see a film discontinued. That has never stopped one from ceasing production however.

Harry Callahan · Aug 27, 2018

RattyMouse said:
It's truly hard to imagine a more stagnant market than the E6 market. If a competitor sells 10,000 rolls of film, that's 10,000 less sales for Ferrania. I cannot believe that such a loss in sales would be insignificant to Ferrania. The only thing to truly hope for is that the long expected Fuji exit from the E6 market happens as soon as possible.

Even if there is growth in E6 (which I dont believe there is), it is extraordinarily tepid, and not even close to being proven to have traction.

I'm an original supporter of the kickstarter effort so do not make such comments lightly.

Andec in germany is brinning their back E6-developing-line and its said they do it just for the return of Ektachrome.

Ferrania has the advantage of...

- sitting in europe. Their products might be more competitive in europe because there is no tax and rather short ways for shipment, therefore low shipping costs.

- maybe being able to produce in more appropriate volumes. They have scaled their production to nowadays market, i once read that Kodak would have to invest about 20 Mio.$ to do so, so the question is whether Kodak has done it or not.

- offering another "flavour". As there were people who just didn´t like Velvia 50 (oooooh the reds...) there will be people favouring Ferraniachrome over Ektachrome.

- having saved a lot of machinery to produce exotic formats. I mean how often is Kodak asked to bring back 126 or 127? Ferrania might supply a market Kodak doesn´t have access to.

In the end there still are some people who just stopped to shoot analog and whatever reason is bringing them back, everyone of them is an additional customer who does not create competition among the remaining film manufacturers.

RattyMouse · Aug 27, 2018

Harry Callahan said:
Andec in germany is brinning their back E6-developing-line and its said they do it just for the return of Ektachrome.

Ferrania has the advantage of...

- sitting in europe. Their products might be more competitive in europe because there is no tax and rather short ways for shipment, therefore low shipping costs.

- maybe being able to produce in more appropriate volumes. They have scaled their production to nowadays market, i once read that Kodak would have to invest about 20 Mio.$ to do so, so the question is whether Kodak has done it or not.

- offering another "flavour". As there were people who just didn´t like Velvia 50 (oooooh the reds...) there will be people favouring Ferraniachrome over Ektachrome.

- having saved a lot of machinery to produce exotic formats. I mean how often is Kodak asked to bring back 126 or 127? Ferrania might supply a market Kodak doesn´t have access to.

In the end there still are some people who just stopped to shoot analog and whatever reason is bringing them back, everyone of them is an additional customer who does not create competition among the remaining film manufacturers.

All that makes sense, but there are a finite number of E6 shooters. Is it enough to sustain a market? Reasonable evidence suggests no, with more labs closing, more products discontinued, and more E6 film being short dated for sale at major locations. We shall see as time goes on.

Very very few businesses survive without growth. All companies I have worked for had major, major problems if growth was less than 3-4%. Who thinks that the E6 market will grow 4% per year for many years on end?

perkeleellinen · Aug 27, 2018

I think the best way to approach film photography is to not worry about the future. Live in the moment; slide film is available today so shoot and project it today.

Harry Callahan · Aug 27, 2018

@RattyMouse:
When Ektachrome was discontinued they said it was due to demand being too low. Wittner dug out Avichrome, saying that the remaining master rolls would at least last for 10 years - and now, 5 years later, the last master was cut down though Avichrome is very grainy, sometimes yellow in color and prone to light-piping due its PET-base. And now Kodak is bringing back Ektachrome.
I don´t quite buy the low-demand-theory.
As the impossible-project did show there is quite some demand for polariods, though the number of polariod-users surely was considered finite before they started to bring back polariods. I also don´t underdstand the growth-theory. As long as it is economical for a manufacturer to produce a certain ammount of goods per year, he doesn´t need growth. All he must be able to is to pay his expense and staff - so a certain number of customers per year would be enough for Ferrania.
If growth of 3-4% was that important for survival manufacturers of film should have died out when digital cameras came up in year 2000, during WWII, WWI, black friday, oil crisis in the 70s... every time growth was less than 3-4%. Though growth in analog film is like -500% for about two decades now there still are quite some manufacturers, if one does count in all the other B&W-manufactueres like Orwo, Foma, Adox etc. .

RattyMouse · Aug 27, 2018

Harry Callahan said:
@RattyMouse:
When Ektachrome was discontinued they said it was due to demand being too low. Wittner dug out Avichrome, saying that the remaining master rolls would at least last for 10 years - and now, 5 years later, the last master was cut down though Avichrome is very grainy, sometimes yellow in color and prone to light-piping due its PET-base. And now Kodak is bringing back Ektachrome.
I don´t quite buy the low-demand-theory.
As the impossible-project did show there is quite some demand for polariods, though the number of polariod-users surely was considered finite before they started to bring back polariods. I also don´t underdstand the growth-theory. As long as it is economical for a manufacturer to produce a certain ammount of goods per year, he doesn´t need growth. All he must be able to is to pay his expense and staff - so a certain number of customers per year would be enough for Ferrania.
If growth of 3-4% was that important for survival manufacturers of film should have died out when digital cameras came up in year 2000, during WWII, WWI, black friday, oil crisis in the 70s... every time growth was less than 3-4%. Though growth in analog film is like -500% for about two decades now there still are quite some manufacturers, if one does count in all the other B&W-manufactueres like Orwo, Foma, Adox etc. .

If the demand were there, Fuji would not have discontinued their packfilms. I never shot that film but was very sad to see it go.

B & H has had short dated E6 films for most of the summer. Even at these reduced prices it does not go out of stock.

Fujifilm has discontinued various SKU's of E6 film, indicating very poor sales.

3-4% grow IS important for film manufacturers. That's why we have seen countless emulsions discontinued during the past 5 years.

Harry Callahan · Aug 27, 2018

Fuji did discontinue though there was demand. It seems to me that Fuji just is tired of producing analog film, for example they refused to sell non-perforated 35mm-film to converters of cine film though those converters still wanted to buy material. That´s how GK-Film died and Colorcity (9.5mm) nearly died of that - oh and the founders of Ferrania wanted to do just the same, but Fuji refused so they decided to bring back Scotchchrome.
Discontinuation of products doesn´t necessarily indicate poor sales ---> Ektachrome.
There have been emulsions discontinued within the last 5 years, but also new ones came up. Wittner has just put out a new B&W for S8 and they´re working on bringing another one (in S8). And as i`ve said, growth in analog film was heavily minus during the last two decades, so all film manufactueres should be dead for about 15 years now, especially the small ones.

Harry Callahan · Aug 27, 2018

And isn´t there allready an undertaking to bring back the peel-apart-film Fuji discontinued about 2 years ago?

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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