Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

wlodekmj · May 17, 2018

Hello David, thank you for this fascinating post on the history of colour/color films. You wrote, in part, that:

FILM Ferrania said:
As I've mentioned elsewhere before - in all of photographic history, there have only been 5 companies who manufacture color film from scratch. In historical order: Kodak, Agfa, Ferrania, Fuji and Svema (although, maybe Svema was before Fuji... Not clear on the precise dates.).

If you mean companies that created their own colour film from basic principles, then it's difficult to argue with this. But if you really mean, as you wrote, "manufacture from scratch", surely there were some more. Sakura (later Konica, later Konica-Minolta) made their own colour film in Japan independently of Fuji. The Hindustan Photo Films manufacturing company was set up to make film in India so it would not have to be imported. Orwo used Agfa film as a basis but manufactured film independently in East Germany after WWII. Gevaert made their own film before merging with Agfa. In the US, Ansco created and made their own films. Even Ilford made their own Ilfochrome film for a time. If you have the time, please do say if you know that some or all of these actually used someone else's materials or manufacturing plant.

Huge thanks for keeping us informed of progress at Ferrania and of many other film facts!

cmacd123 · May 17, 2018

wlodekmj said:
Orwo used Agfa film as a basis but manufactured film independently in East Germany after WWII. Gevaert made their own film before merging with Agfa. In the US, Ansco created and made their own films.

ORWO besicaly WAS Agfa as they took over the pre-war agfa plant after WWII, so their first colour materials were likely almost identical to prewar Agfa colour. Likewise Ansco had acess to Agfa technology, and so anscochrome was closely related to Agfa materials.
h
Ilfocrome was a Kodachrome like material and may have had some help from the disclosures made to competitors by Kodak concerning the anttrust case revolving around Kodachrome.

I am not sure if Gevaert would have had a completely independent colour process due to the cross fertilization that occurred in the 1930 and 40 era.

Photo Engineer · May 17, 2018

Sakura initially used a water wash after development to effect a "mask" of sorts using the release and use of chemistry similar to a 2 bath developer. Later, they used the same masking method as Kodak. I have 4x5 samples of the former, and have discussed the latter with their research people.

PE

Harry Callahan · May 18, 2018

FILM Ferrania said:
...

As of today, we expect that when production can resume, it will be continuous - instead of the sporadic batches of the last year.

This is primarily because we have found a solution to move 35mm converting in-house immediately when production resumes!

WOW. This is excellent news!

RattyMouse · May 18, 2018

Didn't 3M make color film at one point?

Anon Ymous · May 18, 2018

RattyMouse said:
Didn't 3M make color film at one point?

Didn't Ferrania make colour film for them?

wblynch · May 18, 2018

What about Lucky Color film from China? Whose film was that?

cmacd123 · May 18, 2018

Anon Ymous said:
Didn't Ferrania make colour film for them?

BOTH. 3M Took over both Dynachrome and Ferrania. After that most 3M film of any sort was made by Ferrania, although 3M may have made some of the more exotic stuff themselves (Dry Thermal Silver Paper anyone?) presumably any colour film technology that 3M had was shared with Ferrania.

cmacd123 · May 18, 2018

wblynch said:
What about Lucky Color film from China? Whose film was that?

Kodak licensed an older version of Kodacolor.

aleckurgan · May 20, 2018

It's strange that David mentioned Foma for B&W but not for the color. They did have their line of color products including Fomachrom films in different sensitivities and enlarging papers.

cmacd123 · May 20, 2018

aleckurgan said:
It's strange that David mentioned Foma for B&W but not for the color. They did have their line of color products including Fomachrom films in different sensitivities and enlarging papers.

wonder if those were based on the same technology as ORWO. the technology was shared fairly feely behind the Iron Curtain.

someone actually sold me a few rolls of Foma Equicolour film - and it has all sorts of hints to indicate was most certainly produced by Ferrannia.

captain ZZM · May 21, 2018

cmacd123 said:
Kodak licensed an older version of Kodacolor.

In the early day (before 1978) Lucky followed the technology of ORWO or Svema to project color film and used low temperature processing (18 degrees)

aleckurgan · May 21, 2018

cmacd123 said:
wonder if those were based on the same technology as ORWO. the technology was shared fairly feely behind the Iron Curtain.
someone actually sold me a few rolls of Foma Equicolour film - and it has all sorts of hints to indicate was most certainly produced by Ferrannia.

It could have been a variation of ORWO, but based on his previous posts I can safely assume that by "manufacture color film from scratch" David meant making everything in-house from raw chemicals rather than originality of a recipe (e.g. #3804 in this thread).
Equicolor is another story, that's what they sold after the collapse of the Communist bloc, when they had to switch to modern color processes. Besides the canister that I still have says film made in Japan, I guess it was Fuji then.

Diapositivo · May 21, 2018

Regarding colour material from scratch, how does Polaroid fits in the historical picture?

FILM Ferrania · May 21, 2018

cmacd123 said:
where did Konica, (Sakura) fit in there? their colour film had a far different Mask than any of the others that I had seen at the same time (I used a lot of Konica colour negative at one time in the 1980s as it was sold as private label film by everyone from Shoppers Drug Mart to Canadian Tire.

The distinction with this list of manufacturers is that these were the only companies ever built with the entire B&W and color workflow in-house - taking in raw materials only and spitting out commercial products.
Obviously, during the heyday of film, there were many brands who did some part of the process in-house - but only those five did everything.

I know that Konica did make base material, and if that's the case, they likely made their own emulsions as well. They may have even coated in-house, but it was more likely they used a contract coater like Fuji, Ferrania or Agfa. And for converting/finishing, they definitely used Ferrania and probably other contract services that used to be scattered around the globe.

The B2B business in film manufacturing used to be much more robust. Kodak, Fuji, Ferrania and Agfa had various types of facilities scattered around the world. Some of these were full-blown end-to-end factories, and some were built for coating and/or converting only, and were available for hire by other brands. This reduced costs because products could be produced within the specific regions they were going to be sold. But again, only the 5 companies I listed built the end-to-end factories for B&W and color.

FILM Ferrania · May 21, 2018

Diapositivo said:
Regarding colour material from scratch, how does Polaroid fits in the historical picture?

Instant film is radically different from roll films, and so we haven't been including them in the list. The small amount of non-instant film they sold was made by Ferrania.

But OK, technically, Polaroid would be #6 in the list - because they were entirely self-contained, and produced both B&W and color products.

FILM Ferrania · May 21, 2018

Ces1um said:
Pretty soon Fuji will likely be out of the market for film(other than instax) so hopefully that spot will open up to you. I'm quite happy with the 35mm p30 to be honest so colour would just be icing on the cake for me,

It seems pretty clear by now that Fuji is slowly exiting the roll film business. However, we expect them to remain in the market for at least 5-10 years yet.

kb3lms · May 21, 2018

However, we expect them to remain in the market for at least 5-10 years yet.

No. 5 - 10 months is more realistic.

Personally, I think Kodak is sitting on 35mm Ektachrome until they see what Fuji or Film Ferannia does in the 6 to 12 month time frame. An announced exit by either party (Fuji being the more likely) brings forth Ektachrome. If and when Fuji exits color reversal, EKA listens to whatever users scream for the most and make their version of it. If FF calls it quits in the color reversal space, they launch the E100G replacement product. Again, just my opinion but Velvia is on borrowed time. I'd bet the last rolls have already been coated.

warden · May 21, 2018

kb3lms said:
No. 5 - 10 months is more realistic.

Personally, I think Kodak is sitting on 35mm Ektachrome until they see what Fuji or Film Ferannia does in the 6 to 12 month time frame. An announced exit by either party (Fuji being the more likely) brings forth Ektachrome. If and when Fuji exits color reversal, EKA listens to whatever users scream for the most and make their version of it. If FF calls it quits in the color reversal space, they launch the E100G replacement product. Again, just my opinion but Velvia is on borrowed time. I'd bet the last rolls have already been coated.

I don't think Kodak is sitting on anything. It seems unlikely that they would shoulder the cost of redesigning Ektachrome just to sit around and grant the introduction timeframe to their onetime competitors. I think when Ektachrome meets Kodak's standards they will introduce it, no matter what the competition is doing. We don't have it today because its development is incomplete.

I agree about Fuji btw - they do seem to be phasing out of the film business.

Diapositivo · May 22, 2018

FILM Ferrania said:
Instant film is radically different from roll films, and so we haven't been including them in the list. The small amount of non-instant film they sold was made by Ferrania.

IIRC Polaroid also made an "instant roll film". One would put it in some kind of box with some cartridge of chemicals, and one would end up with slide film that could be mounted and projected, in 135 format.
Did I dream about it?
Was it a Polaroid product?

Was that also made by Ferrania?

EDIT: I found it: Polachrome system, introduced in 1983. Is that the material which was made by Ferrania?

Ces1um · May 22, 2018

Diapositivo said:
IIRC Polaroid also made an "instant roll film". One would put it in some kind of box with some cartridge of chemicals, and one would end up with slide film that could be mounted and projected, in 135 format.
Did I dream about it?
Was it a Polaroid product?
Was that also made by Ferrania?
EDIT: I found it: Polachrome system, introduced in 1983. Is that the material which was made by Ferrania?

There's a youtube video somewhere about the stuff. Looked really quite interesting. I wonder if polaroid would ever resurrect it's own version of polaroid instant film? Polaroid/impossible's stuff still isn't where it should be yet (the colour stuff at least) and instax square while much better just is still a bit too small in my personal opinion.

kb3lms · May 22, 2018

jawarden said:
I don't think Kodak is sitting on anything. It seems unlikely that they would shoulder the cost of redesigning Ektachrome just to sit around and grant the introduction timeframe to their onetime competitors.

I was speaking from the point of market size. If there was a bigger market for reversal film, then I would agree: they wouldn't sit on it. But with the size of the market, iff they have completed R&D, then Kodak just might hold on to it a bit until Fuji exits, then put on the final tweaks and scoop up the remains of the market with their lower volume capability that has been rumored. That way, they incur no further cost or spoiling inventory but can pull the trigger at any time and start up production. If Fuji doesn't exit in the next few months, they can still start anyway. But still, just a thought. Only Kodak knows what their plans are.

cmacd123 · May 22, 2018

FILM Ferrania said:
I know that Konica did make base material, and if that's the case, they likely made their own emulsions as well. They may have even coated in-house, .

when DNP (Dai Nippon Printing) bought the film and paper business from Konica Minolta, the buzz was that they were primarily looking at Konica's coating facilities to make speciality products. I understand that afterwards they may have bought in film from folks such as Ferrania.

Konica was founded in 1872, while Ferrania is a latecomer at 1883.

the Konica film always (even the private label stuff) called the two frames ahead of Frame one, Frame K and Frame F so it was easy to identify the film that they converted in house. The cassettes they used were also of thinner metal than most other brands..

Photo Engineer · May 22, 2018

Mitsubishi owned a large fraction of Konishiroku and coated some materials for them. Their founder, Konishiroku Emon, was a personal friend of George Eastman.

PE

Meyer Trioplan · May 22, 2018

Diapositivo said:
IIRC Polaroid also made an "instant roll film". One would put it in some kind of box with some cartridge of chemicals, and one would end up with slide film that could be mounted and projected, in 135 format.
Did I dream about it?
Was it a Polaroid product?

Was that also made by Ferrania?

EDIT: I found it: Polachrome system, introduced in 1983. Is that the material which was made by Ferrania?

Polachrome (and Polapan), which I used to use in the early 90's was apparently made in the US. Polaroid also marketed "One Film" and a Business Use film. I have some rolls of the latter which don't really have the same signatures as Ferrania film in the rebate area and more closely resembles Agfa or Fuji with the "dot matrix" lettering.

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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