Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

cmacd123 said:

But could they do so without permission from Kodak or Kodak Alaris?

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maybe they make the lomography CN films, who knows...after all it says "made in USA" on the box (although I think they are just normal kodak films made in Rochester NY)

this is a quote from Inoviscoat website:

"Together with its partners InovisCoat develops new photographic papers and films for black and white and colour photography. [...] We also have developed something for enthusiasts and the ones who want their shots to be unique: tin-type and special colour-negative films, which turn the known world of colour photography upside down. Each shot will be a surprise!"

It does make me think at lomochrome films

also lomochrome pourple says made in EU

http://www.inoviscoat.de/en/company/our-rd-projects/

RattyMouse said:

All opinions are not equal.

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+1

There’s opinion based on facts and purely personal opinion.

fdonadio said:

There’s opinion based on facts and purely personal opinion.

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I assume no personal opinions are allowed on this forum. Nevermind, here's a fact: Ferrania got backed because it was made clear that their goal was to produce colour reversal film. Here's another: No colour reversal film has yet been produced. You could argue that the money was used to save the equipment, but the final goal was to make colour reversal film. You just don't want to hear it.

Berri, this is simply untrue. It was clearly stated that the purpose of the money was to save the equipment from the wrecking ball. Period. The end. It was HOPED that this would lead to the production of not just color reversal film, but to the revival of any emulsion from Ferrania's recipe book that could be profitably made.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

pbromaghin said:

Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

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I undertand that.
Do you think that they would have achieved their kikstarter success without boasting that a re-engineered version of scotch chrome 100 would have been produced with that very same equipment that they were gonna buy in an unlickly short time? I'm asking honestly, no prejudice.

Carestream offers toll coating for a number of customers. See their web site.

PE

Berri said:

this is a quote from Inoviscoat website:
"Together with its partners InovisCoat special colour-negative films, which turn the known world of colour photography upside down. Each shot will be a surprise!"
It does make me think at lomochrome films
also lomochrome pourple says made in EU
http://www.inoviscoat.de/en/company/our-rd-projects/

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Exactly, when I am using colour film, I am always hoping that the film itself does not constitute a surprise! what I was trying to say, is although the machinery they have was undoubtibly used to make AGFA colour and Agfa Chrome film in the past, they probably are not in a legal if not technical position to recreate the last version of Agfa Chrome that was made just before Agfa Photo reorganized by selling the real estate that there plant sat on, and became a pure play reseller. even if the order came from someone who wanted the entire batch under the customers name... All the Lomograph films seem to resemble coatings that any old line maker would have summarily sent for silver recovery.

Photo Engineer said:

Carestream offers toll coating for a number of customers. See their web site.
PE

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But they seem to indicate that the Silver curtain is repected, with the customer responsible for the exact formula they are to make.

reeth tuB

Berri said:

I undertand that.
Do you think that they would have achieved their kikstarter success without boasting that a re-engineered version of scotch chrome 100 would have been produced with that very same equipment that they were gonna buy in an unlickly short time? I'm asking honestly, no prejudice.

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There's another thing you have completely wrong. They were not going to use the rescued equipment for the rewards. It was going into storage for future use to create a larger and more economically viable factory. The rewards would be made in the LRF that they were already in the process of rehabilitating. They were nothing more than a little "thank you" bonus for helping assure the future of film manufacturing. Do you honestly think I contributed $35 so I could get 2 rolls of film? What kind of fool do you think I am?

I did not back the Ferrania KS campaign because...well because I don't shoot slide film. However when you folks came out with P30 I thought 'hello, that's sounds interesting'. I hope you are successful in making enough P30 to start selling it again. Us old timers keep lamenting the decline of film so even if the price is high, if it helps you guys continue it would be money well spent. I have some experience shooting movie film in my Minolta 16II, Eastman 7222 Double X, bit grainy, but what would one expect from a 10X14mm neg. I'll just keep checking your site every couple of weeks for when your shop opens to non backers. Hope you can make enough film to meet demand.

I've been developing the Double X in a thin 1:60 HC110 as a one shot, probably not near the best but it's what I have.

RattyMouse said:

Nicely said Harry. I would not worry too much about Berri though. His opinions don't hold much weight here.

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Thank you, but i´ve seen quite some jump on the "panic-train" repeating statements like "the money was for color film" or "they got over 1 mio. from the government" or "they produce x-ray-film now" - especially the last one is ridiculous. If they were producing x-ray-film right now, they´d definitely tell us as that would be an update and create them some income which would be good for the future of color film!
But the panik-train-rides don´t think about that and just repeat - which by the way, dear panic-train-riders, is how Trump got president. By spreading panik, anger, distrust and by telling lies - and now there´s an atomic war in sight, well done!
Do we really want this also to happen to this thread, to our beloved hobby?

I don´t.

Berri said:

Inovis Coat (formerly agfa) has the machines, technology and the knowledge to produce colour film (also instant). Buying a machine doesn't automatically mean you can crank out colour film. The ferrania experties is long gone.
I understand that you are just a wealthy patron and have no interest whatsoever in colour film, you just wanted to resurrect an italian historical brand, thank you. By the way, there are many other brands long gone, we need your money. (I was joking, before you have a go at me!)

I am not an hater of Ferrania, I understand that I may come across like one because I have a different point of view on this topic, but please let's just try to be nice to eachother. I think that it will be very unlikley that they will produce any colour film in the foreseeable future, that is all.

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Inovis Coat is just a fraction of the former Agfa imperium. Since Agfa fell apart, 15 years?, they didn´t put out any color film though they didn´t have elementally problems like no power and water supply etc. - and lomographic products don´t count, ok?
The founders in contrary went to the heart core of Ferrania, where much more machines and knowledge is than Inovis Coat does have - and the expertise still is there, in form of the former workers. You don´t think the founders made P30 themselfes?

If i was a wealthy patron there allready would be color film by Ferrania.

So now you´re having a different point of view, no more "facts", were getting closer - and yes, i can be nice if you can stick to the truth!

Berri said:

Public money invested in the technological estate of Val Bormida are not wasted. I believe that the area has a potential.

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That´s nice to hear as some days ago you said:
"A company either work out to be succesfull or should shut down, not just float around by means of state money." #3358

EDIT: I WAS WRONG, BERRI WASN`T REFFERING TO FERRANIA - PLEASE IGNORE THIS POST.

Berri said:

I apreciate the work and the effort that has been put in this project, I know the guys at the lab are working hard nights and days to achieve the promised result and I, of course, give credit to them for that. I still don't believe that a colour reversal film willl ever be produced without some outside technical help.

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That´s also nice to hear and yes, who wouldn´t be better/faster if he had some outside help?

faberryman said:

You might not agree with Berri's opinions, but there is no reason they should hold any less weight here than your or mine.

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The problem with Berris opinions is that he calls them "facts", whether they are facts or just his opinion, or, regrettfully, even lies. As long as he (and others) sticks to the truth his opinion is equal to all other opinions - but remember an opinion can´t beat the truth.

cmacd123 said:

.....

My inner sceptic is wondering if the engineering challenges are still ahead of Film Ferrania to bring back Scotch Chrome. I also wonder if they may be working on other possibilities as the return of Ektachrome may or may not overlap the potential market for Scotch Chrome, depending on Kodak’s plans to offer it in other than Super 8 Carts and 135-36 rolls.

Film Ferania has lost the Big coater, although they say that they have salvaged many parts. The various posts on the subject seem to indicate a plan to use those parts to convert what was built as office space on an adjacent floor into a larger drying area to allow speed up of the small coater. but changing the spped of the coater would proably require many changes in the existing formulas.
.....

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For the short term it´s good for Ferrania when Kodak has brought Ektachrome back. As Ferrania also wanted to bring back an E6-film to stabilize the E6-infrastructure, so labs and producers of E6-chemistry. By Kodak bringin back E100D the E6-infrastructure will be stabilized, especially because E100D will be available as S8, too. How many times is the area of an S8 film the size of a 135-film? 6 times or 8 times? Especially cine film is good for E6-infrastructure as movie film needs a lot of chemistry. Of course there won´t be as many S8-cartridges sold as 135s, but it will help because there is no more new produced E6 cine film out there. Avichrome is nearly sold out.

This means by Kodak bringing back E100D some pressure is taken off Ferrania so they don´t need to bring back their Ferraniachrome at any price. They have a little room to make it right now.

As goes for the market there will be some overlapping, but there also are two groups which won´t cause any overlapping:
The "flavour-group":
There always have been customers which bought the film they liked best, regarding colors etc. If all customers only went for technical perfection, like grain-size for example, everyone would have bought Kodachrome only - and all the other manufacturers could have closed their doors decades ago. Just think of the Velvia-discussions with people hating the intense red and people just loving this emulsion.
So today there are people who just don´t buy E6 as they dislike the current Fuji-film and they also dislike the comming Ektachrome. But they will buy Ferraniachrome, because they like this "flavour" - and that´s the first group where there won´t be any overlapping.

The "price-group":
There also are people who just can´t afford current E6-films or aren´t willing to pay current prices. Now Ferranias idea was to expand the R&D-coater to nowadays demand, to be able to produce the most economical. As far as i know Fuji still runs the big machines which isn´t economical nowadays and Kodak does E100D on a R&D-coater which might be a little too small for nowadays market.
Therefore let´s assume that Ferraniachrome will be 15% less costy in production than E100D. That ain´t much of course, but as an european customer wanting E100D the film has to be shipped across the big lake and there will be some customs duty - which increases price of E100D in europe by, let´s again say, 15%.
This means Ferraniachrome would be 30% less in price, compared to E100D on an european shelf - and that´s something.
Then Ferraniachrome could bring back some former E6-users who just can´t or aren´t willing to pay current prices of Fuji and soon Kodak - without taking away Kodaks customers, as the "price-group" doesn´t buy E100D anyway.
....

So there will be some overlapping on the market, but not as much as one might think in the first place. And in the end it was Kodaks "fault" to bring back E100D, Ferrania didn´t ask for it!

As now the "flavour"- and the "price"-group won´t be buying Fuji and Kodak at all, Ferraniachrome will increase the total number of E6-users and thereby also stabilize the E6-infrastructure. This allone is reason enough for Ferrania to continue work on chrome - aside the promise they made to the backers which they want to keep.
Regarding Ferranias coater, as far as i know they wanted to widen it up, so they can coat wider (mini-)jumbos and they wanted to increase the total length of coatable (mini-)jumbos. I don´t think they´d need to run the coater faster for that, they only need to run it for a longer time which shouldn´t require changes in formula - just more "soup" to pour on.

Berri said:

I assume no personal opinions are allowed on this forum. Nevermind, here's a fact: Ferrania got backed because it was made clear that their goal was to produce colour reversal film. Here's another: No colour reversal film has yet been produced. You could argue that the money was used to save the equipment, but the final goal was to make colour reversal film. You just don't want to hear it.

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Berri said:

I undertand that.
Do you think that they would have achieved their kikstarter success without boasting that a re-engineered version of scotch chrome 100 would have been produced with that very same equipment that they were gonna buy in an unlickly short time? I'm asking honestly, no prejudice.

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Berri, what´s your point?
We all know that Ferrania intended to produce a small batch of color film and that they weren´t able to do so up to now.
We don´t know what would have happened if the kickstarter-campaign only would have been for to save the machines, without any reward. But we do know that some would have backed them though.

What do you want to say? And this time, please try to get the facts right (money---> save machines, color film-->existing euqipment in LRF; no public money wasted etc.), ok? It ain´t that hard, is it?

Harry Callahan said:

That´s nice to hear as some days ago you said:
"A company either work out to be succesfull or should shut down, not just float around by means of state money." #3358

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you strategically forgot to quote post 3359. But that's is ok because you talk facts.

Harry Callahan said:

Berri, what´s your point?

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none. There is no point arguing with guys like you.

Harry Callahan said:

Berri, what´s your point?
We all know that Ferrania intended to produce a small batch of color film and that they weren´t able to do so up to now.
We don´t know what would have happened if the kickstarter-campaign only would have been for to save the machines, without any reward. But we do know that some would have backed them though.

What do you want to say? And this time, please try to get the facts right (money---> save machines, color film-->existing euqipment in LRF; no public money wasted etc.), ok? It ain´t that hard, is it?

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I was wrong and you were right. The kickstarter was just to buy machines. Now they did it we can all sleep tight tonight. film is saved for the next 100 years.

cmacd123 said:

But they seem to indicate that the Silver curtain is repected, with the customer responsible for the exact formula they are to make.

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Exactly my point. They can coat any formula that anyone has including multilayer reversal film from Ferrania if they are asked.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Exactly my point. They can coat any formula that anyone has including multilayer reversal film from Ferrania if they are asked.

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I hope this is what we'll get eventually; a new film formulated and tested at ferrania, but mass produced by one of the major coaters.

Photo Engineer said:

Exactly my point. They can coat any formula that anyone has including multilayer reversal film from Ferrania if they are asked.

PE

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But how many test runs would even Ferrania need to modify an old 3M formula to work on a Kodak Machine. the lab coater that they are making the P30 on was at least designed to have some sort of scaling factors with the 3M production coaters. all the parameters that can be adjusted would need to be to make any 3M era formula at a Kodak plant, (or on a former AGFA machine, or even at Foma or Ilford. (who actually have another clone of an Agfa Machine as far as I know)

Berri said:

you strategically forgot to quote post 3359. But that's is ok because you talk facts.

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Ok, my fault, you weren´t reffering to Ferrania - i overlooked that. I apologize - and i´ve put a note in the regarding post.

Berri said:

none. There is no point arguing with guys like you.

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I´m sorry but you really seemed to want to say something... but ok.

Berri said:

I was wrong and you were right. The kickstarter was just to buy machines. Now they did it we can all sleep tight tonight. film is saved for the next 100 years.

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100 years of analog film sound good to me to be honest.