Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

twelvetone12 · Dec 1, 2017

Well my note on the investment wanted to be a positive note, but it seems everything in this thread becomes negative one way or another. I'm still a bit confused, since the article clearly states that the investment was in FILM Ferrania, but it may be wrong, or inaccurate, or whatever. I guess really whatever at this point.

FILM Ferrania · Dec 1, 2017

twelvetone12 said:
Well my note on the investment wanted to be a positive note, but it seems everything in this thread becomes negative one way or another. I'm still a bit confused, since the article clearly states that the investment was in FILM Ferrania, but it may be wrong, or inaccurate, or whatever. I guess really whatever at this point.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound negative - just clarifying.

The government investment was in the building and grounds, which are owned by them. For public statements, they obviously consider this to be an investment in FILM Ferrania - but it's really a matter of semantics.

None of that money was under our control. It was never in our bank account. They received no equity in FILM Ferrania. So by that definition, it was not an investment in FILM Ferrania.

That said, without the upgrades to the building and infrastructure, there would be no FILM Ferrania today.

So I guess you could say that the government invested in our vision of what the LRF could be, even if they didn't put money into our account directly.

BAC1967 · Dec 1, 2017

It sounds like they're investing in their property to keep the tenant happy. If Ferrania succeeds they get to keep collecting rent and taxes.

cmacd123 · Dec 1, 2017

BAC1967 said:
It sounds like they're investing in their property to keep the tenant happy. If Ferrania succeeds they get to keep collecting rent and taxes.

And crossing their fingers that if the enterprise gets off the ground, the building will be populated with a few hundred skilled workers like it was when 3M made Private label film for every second drug store chain in the free world.

faberryman · Dec 1, 2017

Surely Film Ferrania is not the only tenant in the Val Bormida technology park.

cmacd123 · Dec 1, 2017

faberryman said:
Surely Film Ferrania is not the only tenant in the Val Bormida technology park.

their is a solar power firm using some of the factory space, and a pharmaceutical firm using the main part of the chemical plant as far as I recall. many of the other buildings (including the coating building) were torn down over the last few years, and presumably the hope is new modern High Tech Tenants will want fresh buildings built.

Berri · Dec 1, 2017

FILM Ferrania said:
So far, no one wishes to share any risks or potential profits - so we proceed forward as best we can, which means very slowly and very carefully.

never say never. I'm sure when you will have more to show someone will show more interest, and that could be really good.

Harry Callahan · Dec 2, 2017

jonasfj said:
Are you serious? Of course they took the money to make film. Specifically they took the money to:

1. Purchase and removal of Trixie, Walter and Big Boy
2. Expenses for packing and shipping the rewards

The rewards were promised to be produced in 2015 and shipped in April the same year.

Read for yourself:

Dead Link Removed

So you are the one that ignore facts and your post was clearly a rambling on the "dishonest side".

If someone takes in more than 1 million euro and $300,000 from a Kickstarter project, they have a responsibility to be transparent with information.

If it now turns out to be true that they are busy making some new film for a research laboratory instead of working to make the color slide film, I think many backers will be quite upset and rightfully so.

We'll see if David Bias will return to comment on this?

I am serious.
"
We want to be clear that backing this project is not simply pre-purchasing film before its release. We are offering rewards in the truest sense of the word.

With the existing machinery, staff and materials we have on hand, we are able to make just one very limited batch of film this year."

They had everything they needed to make the film - so the kickstarter-money was to save the machines (and the recipes for emulsions etc.). They didn´t need money to buy recources to produce film, they didn´t need money to rent the machines to produce film etc. - the only thing they *might* have needed money for too may have been to pay the workers making the film. But we don´t know, as the former Ferrania workers probably were unemployed, therefore probably were on dole - and the unemployment office probably would have been ready to pay them, while they are working at a startup (Ferrania) which could create some jobs so the umemployment office would loose some clients.
But even if some of the kickstarter-money was used to pay the workers, the main ammount of the money was used to save the machines, which is what they said.

And that´s what i said, too: The money was for to save the machines. While Berri said it was for color film - which isn´t true. Color film was the reward, but the money wasn´t needed to produce color film, but needed to save the machines.
That´s what i wanted to correct.

Now you say they took more than 1 mio. This also isn´t true, as this ammount of money was invested into the complete campus where the LRF also is, but not solely. If you remember the updates there also is another company producing solar cells, i think - so this money wasn´t for Ferrania, but for the campus and they´d probably invested that money anway, with or without Ferrania trying to produce film.

You see where were getting to when we ignore the facts and belive those Berris who claim the money was for color film and that Ferrania got over 1mio., or that they are producing some x-ray-material - which appears to have been in the past - but not now?!!!

That´s what i´m after, people who make up their own "facts", who havn´t read the updates or forgott what´s what - but come here and claim it a "fact" that the money was for color film or that Ferrania got over 1mio. for whatever.

Harry Callahan · Dec 2, 2017

Berri said:
It is a fact that people backed Ferrania in the hope they would succede and make colour reversal film. Don't tell me you payd some random company just to move a piece of machinery from a building to another.
My opinion is that they won't make (in the next few years) any colour reversal film.
clearer now?

So? Some just did contribute to save the machines - there are some here who confirm that.
And yes, i would have backed them to save the machines. You don´t seem to be aware of what those machines and recipes mean:

How many companies are out there, nowadays, who still are capable of producing color film? Agfa is gone, Fuji seems to retrieve all the time and Kodak is a bit "wobbly" - regrettfully again right now.
Let´s take Foma for example. They´re producing some B&W films, which is great, but i don´t think they´de be capable of color film. Adox is another example, they do B&W, but they can´t do color even if they wanted to, because they lack machines, recipes, experts etc. .
Ferrania had the potential to do color and all this potential would have been lost forever if they didn´t had the machines etc. saved. It was the last and only possibility to save an enourmous ammount of special machines, no longer produced, and an enourmous ammount of knowledge, generations have worked decades for. I don´t want to look down on anybody, but were talking about a former western high-tech industry here. No former UDSSR film producer who somehow put out a film which had some colors - or no chinese "lucky"-something producer.
This is an insane ammount of jewelery were talking about here - and all of that would have been lost forever. FOR EVER, y´know `m sain`?

And to save that potential, that potential to produce color film and a lot of other emulsions, i would have backed them if they only would have saved the machines etc., without any reward.

But that´s obviously not on your mind - though Ferrania also is a traditional brand of italy and just by that it does have some "historical value". You wouldn´t tear down the colloseum, would you? Ok, extreme example, but you see where i´m heading to?

Harry Callahan · Dec 2, 2017

Berri said:
The investment of 1.8 milions is not for building roads. It is to recover the whole technological estate of Val Bormida.

May I ask you how would you feel if it turns up that no colour film will ever be made by this company? If you could set back the clock, would you still pay them to restore "trixi" ,"Caio" and "Sempronio"?
Since the whole project started, there always was a good reason not to deliver what promised. First the bad weather that "shut the window", then they realize there was no road...come on mate, this is not the behaviour professionals should lead.
People backed this project because they made it sound that whithin a few years they would have made colour reversal film available again, they even published a schotch chrome data sheet to say the type of film we could expect. If they wouldn't have said that nobody would have backed them. After many years all you are left with is a poor quality (utterly redundant) expansive low ISO BW film that they never talked about to start with. I dfon't call this attitude professional.

So now the money wasn´t for Ferrania, i see.
I would feel sad, but i´d still try to save the potential Ferrania has, if the clocks were set back - because it was worth to be saved. You shoot analog?

They never claimed themselfes to be professionals at reviving abandoned film facilities. They said who they are (a guy running a film developing laboratory and a guy trying to finish cine and still film) and what they were planning. If they had known about the weather or the asbestos, they would have told us - or even better: They wouldn´t have tried at all.
Just think of that for a minute: They hadn´t tried or had given up when the asbestos was found and said "Sorry, but that´s too many unforseen problems for us, we pay each backer a percentage of the money he invested, according to what amount of money is left to us."
Then we had no P30 right now (yes it´s not available right now, but they did make some), but even worse there would be one manufacturer less being capable of producing color film!!!
Maybe Fuji retrieves completely, maybe Kodak goes bankrupt again - who´s then to fill the gap? Right, no one.

Therefore them guys at Ferrania are doing a tremendous job by just not quitting - by just staying alive though there were enough problems, enough reasons to quit, which the backers would have understood and accepted. Not every kickstarter is a success, you know?

Back then when the kickstarter-campaign was launched Kodak had stopped E100D and no one knew if it ever would come back. That´s one of the main reasons why so many people backed Ferrania, because we seemed to loose E6-films. And if there hadn´t been all these unforseeable obstacles we allready would have some color film made by Ferrania.

But you don´t seem to have appreciation for what problems they had to face, what value those machines and recipes etc. do represent - and whether you´re professional or not (which they didn´t claim to be), an attitude doesn´t help much when unforseeable problems occur. You must be GOD to save problems with your attitude allone.

Harry Callahan · Dec 2, 2017

And Berri, as you seem to be concerned about public funds being wasted:

The government did invest money into the LRF-building. The roof needed to be fixed, electricity supply had to be remade as the power plant was destroyed, water supply had to be remade, asbestos had to be removed and the safety standarts had to be raised to todays levels.
This of course did help Ferrania indirectly, as you need a building with a proper roof, power supply etc. to be able to produce film at all - but that money isn´t wasted or lost. If Ferrania should fail, there still will remain a fully functional and up-to-date LRF-building, in which many different enterprises could do their buisness or produce their products.
As long as the roof doesn´t grow legs and runs away or a meteor hits the building bullseye, no money is wasted or lost. The analog community would be the only one to loose a lot if Ferrania did fail. And till now the whole team of Ferrania showed such an enourmous endurance, a meteor is probably one of the few things being able to stop them.
And for that i give them credit.

RattyMouse · Dec 2, 2017

Harry Callahan said:
As long as the roof doesn´t grow legs and runs away or a meteor hits the building bullseye, no money is wasted or lost. The analog community would be the only one to loose a lot if Ferrania did fail. And till now the whole team of Ferrania showed such an enourmous endurance, a meteor is probably one of the few things being able to stop them.
And for that i give them credit.

Nicely said Harry. I would not worry too much about Berri though. His opinions don't hold much weight here.

Berri · Dec 2, 2017

RattyMouse said:
His opinions don't hold much weight here.

nor does yours.

Berri · Dec 2, 2017

Harry Callahan said:
How many companies are out there, nowadays, who still are capable of producing color film? Agfa is gone, Fuji seems to retrieve all the time and Kodak is a bit "wobbly" - regrettfully again right now.
Let´s take Foma for example. They´re producing some B&W films, which is great, but i don´t think they´de be capable of color film. Adox is another example, they do B&W, but they can´t do color even if they wanted to, because they lack machines, recipes, experts etc. .
Ferrania had the potential to do color and all this potential would have been lost forever if they didn´t had the machines etc. saved. It was the last and only possibility to save an enourmous ammount of special machines, no longer produced, and an enourmous ammount of knowledge, generations have worked decades for. I don´t want to look down on anybody, but were talking about a former western high-tech industry here. No former UDSSR film producer who somehow put out a film which had some colors - or no chinese "lucky"-something producer.
This is an insane ammount of jewelery were talking about here - and all of that would have been lost forever. FOR EVER, y´know `m sain`?

And to save that potential, that potential to produce color film and a lot of other emulsions, i would have backed them if they only would have saved the machines etc., without any reward.

But that´s obviously not on your mind - though Ferrania also is a traditional brand of italy and just by that it does have some "historical value". You wouldn´t tear down the colloseum, would you? Ok, extreme example, but you see where i´m heading to?

Inovis Coat (formerly agfa) has the machines, technology and the knowledge to produce colour film (also instant). Buying a machine doesn't automatically mean you can crank out colour film. The ferrania experties is long gone.
I understand that you are just a wealthy patron and have no interest whatsoever in colour film, you just wanted to resurrect an italian historical brand, thank you. By the way, there are many other brands long gone, we need your money. (I was joking, before you have a go at me!)

I am not an hater of Ferrania, I understand that I may come across like one because I have a different point of view on this topic, but please let's just try to be nice to eachother. I think that it will be very unlikley that they will produce any colour film in the foreseeable future, that is all.

Berri · Dec 2, 2017

Harry Callahan said:
And Berri, as you seem to be concerned about public funds being wasted:

Public money invested in the technological estate of Val Bormida are not wasted. I believe that the area has a potential.

Berri · Dec 2, 2017

Harry Callahan said:
Therefore them guys at Ferrania are doing a tremendous job by just not quitting - by just staying alive though there were enough problems, enough reasons to quit, which the backers would have understood and accepted. Not every kickstarter is a success, you know?

I apreciate the work and the effort that has been put in this project, I know the guys at the lab are working hard nights and days to achieve the promised result and I, of course, give credit to them for that. I still don't believe that a colour reversal film willl ever be produced without some outside technical help.

Sal Santamaura · Dec 2, 2017

Prof_Pixel said:
Dave, as I'm sure you know: 'Illegitimi non carborundum'

Were I Dave, a passive 'carry on and don't let them dissuade you' approach like that would be very difficult. I'd be sooooo tempted to return fire with gusto. That's why Dave's in a job like his and I'm not.

mudfly9 · Dec 2, 2017

RattyMouse said:
Nicely said Harry. I would not worry too much about Berri though. His opinions don't hold much weight here.

+1

faberryman · Dec 2, 2017

RattyMouse said:
Nicely said Harry. I would not worry too much about Berri though. His opinions don't hold much weight here.

You might not agree with Berri's opinions, but there is no reason they should hold any less weight here than your or mine.

RattyMouse · Dec 2, 2017

faberryman said:
You might not agree with Berri's opinions, but there is no reason they should hold any less weight here than your or mine.

Actually, if you read his opinions, you may find a reason why they arent worth the electrons they are printed on. All opinions are not equal.

kb3lms · Dec 2, 2017

twelvetone12 said:
... since the article clearly states that the investment was in FILM Ferrania ...

Well, any investment in the facility was indirectly an investment in FF because they directly benefit from it and it's money they don't have to spend.

Also, the success of the P30 pre-sale would also have greatly benefitted the manufacturing process.

Berri · Dec 2, 2017

RattyMouse said:
Actually, if you read his opinions, you may find a reason why they arent worth the electrons they are printed on. All opinions are not equal.

I actually feel the same about your opinion, but usaually don't waste time one you

Photo Engineer · Dec 2, 2017

Carestream in Windsor Colorado could make a fine film. They have the facilities and formulas.

PE

cmacd123 · Dec 2, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Carestream in Windsor Colorado could make a fine film. They have the facilities and formulas.
PE

But could they do so without permission from Kodak or Kodak Alaris? the only film making IP that they probably own is for X-ray products. they are apparently making colour paper for KA currently, And I did get a few 16mm Colour work prints a few years back with edge print of KOD,AK which I subsequently learned was the code for Colorado, (at first I thought I was seeing KOD'AK - Kodak Limited London) But I don't know if the film was just finished there from Rochester master rolls or was coated there.

Was Ektachrome ever made in Colorado? was ECN or Kodacolor? would they have to do as much engineering on Ektachrome to "get it back" as the building 38 Crew is apparently having to do?

My inner sceptic is wondering if the engineering challenges are still ahead of Film Ferrania to bring back Scotch Chrome. I also wonder if they may be working on other possibilities as the return of Ektachrome may or may not overlap the potential market for Scotch Chrome, depending on Kodak’s plans to offer it in other than Super 8 Carts and 135-36 rolls.

Film Ferania has lost the Big coater, although they say that they have salvaged many parts. The various posts on the subject seem to indicate a plan to use those parts to convert what was built as office space on an adjacent floor into a larger drying area to allow speed up of the small coater. but changing the spped of the coater would proably require many changes in the existing formulas.

As far as Inovis Coat, they do have some Agfa Machines and former AGFA personnel, and formulas. they are hired guns in the coating business and so they would need a client who could negotiate with probably BOTH Agfa-Gevaert and Agfa Photo to have the rights to produce any of the old Agfa Formulas. Film Ferrania seems to have the rights for any film that was produced at The Ferrania Campus since it was set up before WWII.

Berri · Dec 2, 2017

cmacd123 said:
As far as Inovis Coat, they do have some Agfa Machines and former AGFA personnel, and formulas. they are hired guns in the coating business and so they would need a client who could negotiate with probably BOTH Agfa-Gevaert and Agfa Photo to have the rights to produce any of the old Agfa Formulas.

I am pretty sure they make the lomochrome colour negative film. in BW they make bergger films (very very good product, by the way) and ofcourse impossible (polaroid originals) film

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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