Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

FILM Ferrania · May 18, 2017

RattyMouse said:
I thought everyone would have their P30 by now. Is this not a correct expectation?

We felt that we made it clear previously that we were shipping as much as we could make on a weekly basis and that in the first weeks, this was not much. We made a video about the process of ramping the scale of production, and a post about the quality assurance bottleneck we faced in the first weeks.

Evidently, we did not make it clear enough and today's post was an attempt to clear it up a bit: Dead Link Removed

FILM Ferrania · May 18, 2017

cmacd123 said:
if you read the posts on P30 carefully, they seem to be having the packing contacted out even for 35mm at this point.

You are entirely correct - we are simply not at liberty to name this partner. Putting our own 35mm converting and finishing online is a priority, but requires money that we simply must put toward other things right now.

Nicola has come up with a relatively innovative plan to fast-track the installation of our converting lines - which you will remember are from the former Ferrania operation and thus FAR exceed the capacity of our precision coater in terms of rolls/day. But it remains to be seen if we can implement this plan or if we must continue on the slow-and-steady plan we have followed thus far.

railwayman3 · May 19, 2017

MattKing said:
Flavio:
I am quite sure that Simon Galley was telling the truth when he confirmed that it cost Harman more money to buy the backing paper for a roll of 120 film than it did to make a single roll of 120 film. The reason that the film part of the equation is smaller is that when you make lots of film you can bring down the per roll cost.
Just as he was telling the truth when Harman relatively recently invested substantial amounts of capital to buy the machinery to make their own 35mm cassettes, because they were having trouble with the cost and reliability of the available suppliers.
The problem with any of these components is that each of them is only inexpensive if one is using them with some economies of scale.
If Ferrania makes high volumes of film, the cost of the film per roll will be small.
Same goes for film cassettes, film boxes, shipping, customer support, property taxes, electricity, water, salaries, etc., etc. - the per roll costs depend heavily on how many rolls are involved.

All absolutely correct ! I am afraid that some posters have no concept of things like marginal costing:-

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/marginal-cost.html

twelvetone12 · May 19, 2017

Thanks Dave for the update!

RattyMouse · May 19, 2017

Wallendo said:
An interesting quote from the update:

"In addition, without P30 and the sales we have generated, we would have been forced to close our doors earlier this year - a fact that cannot be understated. Creating P30 ALLOWS us to continue forward with creating color reversal film for the market, of which your rewards will be the “ALPHA” version."

Yeah, that was a very depressing tidbit.

Agulliver · May 19, 2017

I thought it was common knowledge that the kickstarter funds were to secure the future of various machinery from the old Ferrania building, and to move enough of it to the LRF in order to restart some production of film....given that these things have all been accomplished, it is self evident that Film Ferrania require to sell something in order to acquire more funds to continue towards making their E6 and other films.

Genuinely puzzled as to why anyone would find this a surprise.

Agulliver · May 19, 2017

With regard to 220 film...I have at least one camera capable of using this and would probably buy the occasional roll. However, this camera is also perfectly at home with 120 so it's not a big priority.

Would I be right in the assumption that all 220 cameras can also take 120?

bvy · May 19, 2017

Wallendo said:
An interesting quote from the update:

"In addition, without P30 and the sales we have generated, we would have been forced to close our doors earlier this year - a fact that cannot be understated. Creating P30 ALLOWS us to continue forward with creating color reversal film for the market, of which your rewards will be the “ALPHA” version."

What was originally promoted as a "happy accident" is now being positioned as having saved the entire business. Don't know if this is more marketing talk to further justify the diversion, or if the business is now relying on such fortuitous happenings to reach the finish line. I appreciate Dave's honesty, but I'm not sure I would have shared this tidbit.

foen · May 19, 2017

They are really boring...

flavio81 · May 19, 2017

bvy said:
What was originally promoted as a "happy accident" is now being positioned as having saved the entire business.

P30 wasn't promoted as a happy accident. From the beginning, the founder (Nicola) wrote that he would wish to resurrect P30.

bvy · May 19, 2017

flavio81 said:
P30 wasn't promoted as a happy accident. From the beginning, the founder (Nicola) wrote that he would wish to resurrect P30.

My quote not theirs. Even so, it wasn't part of the business plan to bring their color slide film to market.

kb3lms · May 19, 2017

I'm glad they have their P30 coming on line and available to sell. Any business needs money coming in the door. I'm looking forward to my color film but it's more important at the moment that they stay in business rather than rushing the color product out the door.

I, US customer, have not received my P30 yet either, nor have I been charged. I'm sure it will show up before long and looking forward to it, too.

Yeah, this delivery time for the P30 wouldn't be acceptable from an established manufacturer. But, FF is fledgling, barely, so I can be patient with them and I think we all should. Rather see them get there than lose out with poor product.

Europan · May 19, 2017

Thanks, Dave. I know about the conversion situation with Film Ferrania and I know about the conversion situation with Kodak. In this respect Ferrania is better off than Kodak. Eastman-Kodak sold continuous perforators and intermittent perforators almost by the dozen or per weight. Would be interesting to know where those ended. Kodak can’t perforate 105 mm stock. Kodak don’t want to offer double-perfed 16mm stocks on their own terms. One literally has to force them to it although it was the Eastman-Kodak Company that introduced 16mm film perforated both edges in 1923. Kodak betrays users of their own great 16mm film cameras, the Ciné-Kodak Special and Special II. These and other cameras demand double-perfed stock to say nothing of the many possibilities double-perfed film offers for trick work, on editing, and with making archival duplicates. I have salvaged 16mm originals whose one perforation row is projector torn simply thanks to the existence of the original second row of holes. There are way more 16mm cameras with the regular aperture around than Super-16 ones.

I believe in Film Ferrania, Baldini is an active photographer and Pagni knows some of lab procedures. Kodak wouldn’t even deem it necessary to publish that their New York City lab is open.

Agulliver · May 19, 2017

It was a happy accident that Nicola discovered a hand-written formula for P30 in a filing cabinet when things were being moved from the big Ferrania building to the LRF.

Prior to that, Film Ferrania were asked if they'd bring back P30 and Nicola said then that they would like to but didn't have the formula.

The plan was *always* to make a single large batch of E6 film using chemicals etc. left over from the 3M era, then start producing their own B&W film before formulating their own E6 films based on the 3M product.

The only change is that they weren't able to produce those reward films (plus some left over to sell and make money to allow the project to continue) due to circumstances out of their control.

Really...other than that window of opportunity to make the first batch...nothing has changed. They were always going to make and sell something other than the final E6 films in order to keep the money coming in. What do you think they are using to pay for heating, lighting, ventilation....wages? That kickstarter funds were explicitly stated to be for the purpose of saving the machinery necessary to carry out the project long term, move it and reinstall it in the LRF. That was done, and that money has gone. Nothing new there for those of us who bothered to read the original kickstarter info.

cmacd123 · May 19, 2017

I would also guess that since the Local Government has also shelled out to carry out the re-activation of the LRF (new utilities and such) that they were probably wanting to see some paid sales and orders. Having the P30 pipeline of orders would help to keep them happy.

MattKing · May 19, 2017

Agulliver said:
Would I be right in the assumption that all 220 cameras can also take 120?

I have a vague recollection that there were a couple of 220 only film cameras, but the problem with using them with 120 would most likely be primarily related to the frame counters.

cmacd123 · May 19, 2017

MattKing said:
I have a vague recollection that there were a couple of 220 only film cameras, but the problem with using them with 120 would most likely be primarily related to the frame counters.

There are many film backs that come in separate 120 or 220 versions. and so the 220 versions are now next to useless.

rbultman · May 21, 2017

I'd definitely buy 220 if it was available in B&W, C-41, and E-6. I'd use it in my GA645 P&S and my GW690II. The convenience of not having to change rolls after 15 shots on vacation is nice. I almost never use my 6X9 for the same reason (although I don't take that one on vacation.) Come to think of it, I only have one camera that requires 120 film a Sears Tower 66.

twelvetone12 · May 21, 2017

Dunno if it was already linked:
Dead Link Removed

A very nice interview with Dave Bias that gives a lot of new details on the ongoing operation, you really get the sense of the scale of the whole project. And I love the idea that you will have a dedicated coater for P30

gkardmw · May 24, 2017

Got my P30 film today

USA! Cleveland Ohio area

gkardmw · May 24, 2017

More information:
Order Number 9043x
Date: March 15, 2017 3:20 pm

Jeff L · May 24, 2017

I received an email saying that my P30 has been shipped. Should be here in a few days I expect (hope).

Andrew O'Neill · May 24, 2017

I hope all you P30 shooters post your images here.

jimjm · May 24, 2017

Well, look what arrived in the post today.... only 2 days after I received the shipping notification.

Now the tough part is deciding which camera gets to play first...

Not in a big hurry for the color film as I'm mostly a B/W shooter, but it's pretty cool to see some real product from Ferrania after all the wait.

TheToadMen · May 25, 2017

jimjm said:
Well, look what arrived in the post today.... only 2 days after I received the shipping notification.
Now the tough part is deciding which camera gets to play first...
Not in a big hurry for the color film as I'm mostly a B/W shooter, but it's pretty cool to see some real product from Ferrania after all the wait.

That's a nice test panel you've got there! Use all three of them, starting from left to right.

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