HCB Appreciation

[koraks]

Precisely - ask Johann Sebastian.

 

[nikos79]

Maybe. I see your point, but at the same time, I'm also aware of the fact that what we consider 'strong' in an artistic sense is to a large extent culturally determined. I.e. it depends on context. Or, put simply - things go in and out of fashion. This poses certain questions about the implied objectivity behind what makes a 'strong' work of art.

Btw I started applying the same principle (you once recommended) of just looking one more time to Atget. A lot of reconsiderations. Don't get me wrong both Atget and HCB are masters but we cannot approach each of their photographs as per facto masterpiece just because it is a HCB. It is not a painting where a lot of time and creativity was involved. It is just a poor photograph a quick trace of time tried to be immortalized. And sometimes this photo cannot be that significant. That is my problem of posting many photos here and there and praising them just because they lived in the context and myth of HCB or Eugene Atget

 

[nikos79]

Precisely - ask Johann Sebastian.

And the Brandenburg concerts...

 

[snusmumriken]

Btw I started applying the same principle (you once recommended) of just looking one more time to Atget. A lot of reconsiderations. Don't get me wrong both Atget and HCB are masters but we cannot approach each of their photographs as per facto masterpiece just because it is a HCB. It is not a painting where a lot of time and creativity was involved. It is just a poor photograph a quick trace of time tried to be immortalized. And sometimes this photo cannot be that significant. That is my problem of posting many photos here and there and praising them just because they lived in the context and myth of HCB or Eugene Atget

I had this problem with one or two of the photos that HCB selected for his touring retrospective. We had a (very) long thread about it here on Photrio.

I think you are evaluating photos as though they are competition entries. Neither Aget nor HCB were in that game. I suggest you should instead be asking, “Why is he showing me this? What did he see in this?”. Then the poor quality, OOF shots find a place precisely because they fit in the context of the artist’s life.

 

[Don_ih]

I suggest you should instead be asking, “Why is he showing me this? What did he see in this?”

That's good advice.

All this ranking is superimposed. This is a masterpiece, that is a pile of crap - after the fact characterizations that probably completely miss the point.

It might be better to let go of the "high art" expectations and just try to appreciate what appeals to you.

 

[cliveh]

How about this for perfect timing and composition: -

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

To be a strong work of art means at the point of evaluation. Some art work is not seen as very good when it's made and only becomes significant later. Then it can go the other way. People want to hold onto the idea of some kind of immortality to a work of art but that's idealist fantasy. Art has its lifespan, just like everything else. Unlike other things, though, it can be resurrected periodically.

Yes, tastes change. We all used to wear skinny ties.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

How about this for perfect timing and composition: -

View attachment 409733

Nice shot. But I would have liked to see the steps at the bottom. They seem cut off. (I know, always a critic.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Btw I started applying the same principle (you once recommended) of just looking one more time to Atget. A lot of reconsiderations. Don't get me wrong both Atget and HCB are masters but we cannot approach each of their photographs as per facto masterpiece just because it is a HCB. It is not a painting where a lot of time and creativity was involved. It is just a poor photograph a quick trace of time tried to be immortalized. And sometimes this photo cannot be that significant. That is my problem of posting many photos here and there and praising them just because they lived in the context and myth of HCB or Eugene Atget

I agree. Here's a quiz. Which HCB pictures come to mind? Quick. Oh, the puddle jumper and the boy with the bottle of wine and the bicycle/staircase and .... Hmmm. Isn't that true of most famous artists. There are only a few shots or paintings you think of, same with singers, musicians and other artists. Only a few stand out and remembered. The rest are meh.

 

[cliveh]

Btw I started applying the same principle (you once recommended) of just looking one more time to Atget. A lot of reconsiderations. Don't get me wrong both Atget and HCB are masters but we cannot approach each of their photographs as per facto masterpiece just because it is a HCB. It is not a painting where a lot of time and creativity was involved. It is just a poor photograph a quick trace of time tried to be immortalized. And sometimes this photo cannot be that significant. That is my problem of posting many photos here and there and praising them just because they lived in the context and myth of HCB or Eugene Atget

The time and effort involved has nothing to do with artistic value.

 

[cliveh]

Nice shot. But I would have liked to see the steps at the bottom. They seem cut off. (I know, always a critic.

As you have no idea what the bottom step looked like and it would mean cutting out the view at the top of the frame, your comment is quite ridiculous.

 

[Don_ih]

As you have no idea what the bottom step looked like and it would mean cutting out the view at the top of the frame, your comment is quite ridiculous.

The comment is not ridiculous. It points out how arbitrary the demands of "perfect timing and composition" are. If the photo was framed a very slight bit lower, it would still be lauded as "perfect composition" - it would be the same photo.

I'm sure security or doorbell cameras get images like that all the time. Maybe it's time to scrape them out to print off some masterpieces (see, now that is "quite ridiculous").

Hero worship is fine but not everyone joins the same fan club.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I still come across HCB images I have never seen before and the other day found this one.
View attachment 160359

I still come across HCB images I have never seen before and the other day found this one.
View attachment 160359

after spending decades of admiring HCB's images and his talent, I also concluded that he was a fortunate photographer. Life and fate threw situations and compositions in front of his camera that others will never have the opportunity to see. This, however, does not take away his talent to amazingly quickly recognize the opportunity and react accordingly. If I were in his situation in those moments, I wouldn't have gotten half the shots. His camera was an extension of his arm and his brain. He was right there with an eye for the situation, exposure, and focus preset, untimed, and ready for the task. He was just an amazing photographer!

 

[koraks]

If the photo was framed a very slight bit lower, it would still be lauded as "perfect composition" - it would be the same photo.

I'm not so sure about that at all. And the latter part ('the same photo') would simply be incorrect. The subject matter would be the same, more or less. The photo would be different. I couldn't say whether it work as well as this version does without seeing the alternative.

 

[gary mulder]

I you have the feeling that you can improve HCB photographs way not pickup your camera and go outside and do so ?

 

[nikos79]

I think yes his photographs can be improved.
This photo for example for me has a weakness/error

 

[nikos79]

Which can be "solved" here:
(as I find the cyclist very distracting)

 

[nikos79]

As for anyone thinking can be as good as HCB must have a big idea of themselves. We are not even 1% as good as him. But that can't stop us of approaching his work critically

 

[Don_ih]

I'm not so sure about that at all.

A "very slight bit" would be maybe less than a mm on the negative. One mm away from the top, one mm added to the bottom. "Perfect" as it is, it's nitpicking. The photo would be different, yes, in terms of its actuality. But everything you could say about it would be exactly the same.

I you have the feeling that you can improve HCB photographs way not pickup your camera and go outside and do so ?

The point is not to say his photos can be improved - it's to preserve the right for people to give criticism.

And people are entitled to look at the photos and say "so what?" or "I don't like it" or "what's that supposed to be?" That doesn't need to violate the sanctity of anyone else's veneration.

 

[nikos79]

I agree. Here's a quiz. Which HCB pictures come to mind? Quick. Oh, the puddle jumper and the boy with the bottle of wine and the bicycle/staircase and .... Hmmm. Isn't that true of most famous artists. There are only a few shots or paintings you think of, same with singers, musicians and other artists. Only a few stand out and remembered. The rest are meh.

Exactly. But you learn to "love" and "appreciate" and "undestand" an artist with also his not so good works. Fellini made some masterpieces and some weaker movies too. But seeing them all you learn to appreciate the artist more with his failures and successes. They who don't risk they don't make great art too.

 

[koraks]

Which can be "solved" here:

I can only assume this is a joke, in which case it's rather funny. A bit like taking the Mona Lisa and then removing the silly face in the center.

 

[Don_ih]

A bit like taking the Mona Lisa and then removing the silly face in the center.

It would unobstruct the view....

 

[gary mulder]

Cartier-Bresson was adamant about altering the frame of his images. With adjusting the crop you violate HCB's copyrights. Where you expressly do not have permission to do so. Legally you can get away with it, but ethical is a different story.
If you don't understand that HCB thought the frame was an essential part of the making of the photo, maybe you don’t understand his art. The frame is part of the The Decisive Moment.

 

[nikos79]

I can only assume this is a joke, in which case it's rather funny. A bit like taking the Mona Lisa and then removing the silly face in the center.

Not a joke at all, I really believe this photo would be better without the "blurred" bike that works more as an effect

 

[Don_ih]

If you don't understand that HCB thought the frame was an essential part of the making of the photo, maybe you don’t understand his art.

His decisions in making the print everyone gets to see are irrelevant to the people looking at those finished prints. Why? Because the viewer is not privy to the alternatives. The viewer is presented the result of all the choices made by the photographer and is not involved in the decision-making process. Appreciating his methods and ideology is swell, but it doesn't improve a particular photo. You don't have to like all his photos to appreciate his skill and methodology - just like you don't have to care about his skill and methodology in order to like one of his photos.