HCB Appreciation

[nikos79]

Even worse, they're very likely the inner workings of a large language model.

I am flattered

 

[nikos79]

I find it quite interesting how you often seem to alternate, from thread to thread, between a poorly concealed unwillingness to fully appreciate these photographers and a deep desire to really do so. The Atget 'appreciation' thread is a glowing example of this.

To @snusmumriken support I remember quite well the 'Atget' thread and he never showed an unwillingness to appreciate Atget. On the contrary, given a photographer who is not evident and easy at all (just go to 90% of art photography schools and they will tell you Atget was a historian who simply documented) he tried really hard to approach the Atget as an artist. All the questions he raised in that thread were valid ones and meant to understand and approach his work as an artist

 

[snusmumriken]

Bach didn't steal anything. He transcribed some of Vivaldi's concertos, and transcribing other people's work was common practice at the time. He was open to other musicians 'stealing' - as you put it - his music, too: his scores are famously open ended and open to interpretation, so much so that people have often 'stolen' (->transcribed) several of his Klavier works - Busoni's transcription of the Chorale Prelude BWV 659 and Kempff's transcription of the Chorale Prelude BWV 734 are particularly noteworthy, though I'm sure there would have been people transcribing his work already in his time.

I grew up in a house with Carrell's 'Bach the Borrower' on the bookshelf. Steal, transcribe, borrow, whatever. Those organ pieces are programmed today as Bach, not Vivaldi, but really it doesn't matter. We know the original, we understand how Bach handled it. Maybe Stokowski took it even further, I don't know. My point was that Vivaldi's compositions are undiminished in the process, and Bach's mastery unsullied by knowing the original. There are scores (forgive me) of other musical examples: Pergolesi/Stravinski, Purcell/Britten, Blow/Bliss, ...

I find it quite interesting how you often seem to alternate, from thread to thread, between a poorly concealed unwillingness to fully appreciate these photographers and a deep desire to really do so. The Atget 'appreciation' thread is a glowing example of this.

Gosh, I hardly know what to say. Those two photographers HCB and Atget have been a lifelong love of mine. But I'm interested to understand them, to figure out how the magic works for me, and why it doesn't appeal to everyone. I like to discuss. This forum is one of very few places where one can do that. Is that very terrible?

 

[albireo]

To @snusmumriken support I remember quite well the 'Atget' thread and he never showed an unwillingness to appreciate Atget. On the contrary, given a photographer who is not evident and easy at all (just go to 90% of art photography schools and they

If you're really a human being, and I am sure you are, my personal impression is that you're trapped in a certain mindset that constrains you and ultimately creates a distance between you and your audience.

I think it would do you so much good to unshackle yourself from this framework and rethink what exactly it is that makes you passionate about something (in this case, photography) with completely fresh eyes.

I don't know if this is your cultural upbringing, your photography teacher, your community, 90% of those photography schools speaking through you, but you come across more as some sort of spokesperson for someone else, for some clique-ish ideology perhaps, than as someone who genuinely believes what they're saying as the culmination of their own lived experience.

 

[albireo]

Those two photographers HCB and Atget have been a lifelong love of mine. But I'm interested to understand them, to figure out how the magic works for me, and why it doesn't appeal to everyone. I like to discuss. This forum is one of very few places where one can do that. Is that very terrible?

Not at all. Sorry and please carry on. Perhaps magic is indeed rendered more understandable by taking it apart like one would do with a Swiss automatic watch.

But if these two photographers are some of the ones you love, I'll be looking forward to your contributions on those you intensely dislike

 

[nikos79]

If you're really a human being, and I am sure you are, my personal impression is that you're trapped in a certain mindset that constrains you and ultimately creates a distance between you and your audience.

I think it would do you so much good to unshackle yourself from this framework and rethink of what exactly it is that makes you passionate about something (in this case, photography) with completely fresh eyes.

I don't know if this is your cultural upbringing, your photography teacher, your community, 90% of those photography schools speaking through you, but you come across more a some sort of spokesperson for someone else, for an entire ideology perhaps, than as someone who genuinely believes what they're saying as the culmination of their own lived experience.

I know very well what I love about photography and which parts of photography lets me totally indifferent.
I can look at HCB all day, I am genuinely happy when I see his photos.
But I cannot convince someone or explain it. This is somehow felt. The reason I approached HCB with a "psyche" is not to project myself and emotions to it but because I believe this is the best way to approach photography as an art - in a poetic way.
But I can very well stop it if it annoys people here.
Then we can happily spend the evening discussing S-curves, golden ratios, and interesecting lines

 

[cliveh]

I know very well what I love about photography and which parts of photography lets me totally indifferent.
I can look at HCB all day, I am genuinely happy when I see his photos.
But I cannot convince someone or explain it. This is somehow felt. The reason I approached HCB with a "psyche" is not to project myself and emotions to it but because I believe this is the best way to approach photography as an art - in a poetic way.
But I can very well stop it if it annoys people here.
Then we can happily spend the evening discussing S-curves, golden ratios, and interesecting lines

nikos79, don't beat yourself up. Just enjoy what images you like.

 

[nikos79]

Also about this 90% I spoke from experience.
In the art photography schools they approach Atget as a figure important for the history of photography not as an artist.
I have spoke to teachers, students, etc. and I was shocked how they thought of him.
There is a word in French called passe meaning "old-fashioned" or "not relevant" anymore. This is how the majority approaches Atget

 

[nikos79]

nikos79, don't beat yourself up. Just enjoy what images you like.

thanks Clive

 

[albireo]

In the art photography schools they approach Atget as a figure important for the history of photography not as an artist.

I just can't for the life of me understand why you care so much about how 'the art photography schools' (which? where? when?) approach Atget.

 

[nikos79]

I just can't for the life of me understand why you care so much about how 'the art photography schools' (which? where? when?) approach Atget.

Honestly?
Because when I meet with an art photography school teacher or student I feel we speak a different language.
And this creates loneliness. You can't imagine. This is why I felt happy within the art community I am part of in Greece (the Photography Circle) and why I felt so excited when I came across a thread here in a mainstream forum which called "Appreciation of Atget" and led me to many interesting discussions and other threads like this one in Photrio. I saw people who knew a lot about art and could genuinely appreciate Atget or HCB

P.S. I cannot say which and where because I don't want to pinpoint to certain institutions or people, this is a public forum anyway

 

[nikos79]

But if these two photographers are some of the ones you love, I'll be looking forward to your contributions on those you intensely dislike

I don't know about @snusmumriken but trust me you don't want to hear mine

 

[snusmumriken]

I don't know about @snusmumriken but trust me you don't want to hear mine

I can’t imagine intensely disliking any photographer. I just ignore the ones that don’t appeal to me.

 

[nikos79]

I can’t imagine intensely disliking any photographer. I just ignore the ones that don’t appeal to me.

Best thing to do actually.

 

[nikos79]

Can we go back to HCB? And perhaps discuss his relationship to Magnum? Or to Sergio Larrain and why he left his mentor? (it had something to do with philosophy clash I think, although Larrain deeply admired HCB there was a pressure he felt regarding the commercialization of photography)

 

[nikos79]

Also the idea that HCB was somehow against using photography for self-expression but rather to show life?

Quote: "That’s why teaching and learning don’t make sense. You must live and look. All these photography schools are a gimmick. What are they teaching? Could you teach me how to walk? These schools are phony."

 

[nikos79]

I also find this quote of HCB very relevant to what we discuss regarding his pictures (sorry @albireo for trying to take apart the magic )

Quote: "Very often, I see photographers cultivating the strangeness or awkwardness of a scene, thinking that it’s poetry. No, poetry includes two elements that are suddenly in conflict—a spark between two elements. "

Can't you see how evident this is in many of the pictures posted here?

 

[nikos79]

Quote (HCB) : "A portrait is like a courtesy visit of fifteen or twenty minutes. You can’t disturb people for any longer than that, like a mosquito about to bite.”

Interesting "engagement" if you consider yourself a mosquito

 

[nikos79]

\\

"

Yes he did view things upside down and inverted right/left, left/right. These are only a giude. Also, your photography MO does not have to have a label.

Burri said Cartier‑Bresson “aggravated me often — he would look through your contact sheets upside down” because he always wanted to see the composition first.

 

[cliveh]

When a student would present me with a photograph I would often look at it upside down. I don't this works for every image, but it is a good guide to see if some form of aesthetic composition is at play.

 

[nikos79]

Another controversial HCB quote that impressed me (but I kind of agree):

"They are scatological and coprophagous. They photograph only their anxieties and their neuroses",

referencing the works of Richard Avedon, Jean Sudre, David Hamilton, Diane Arbus, Duane Michals, and the late work of Bruce Davidson

 

[nikos79]

When a student would present me with a photograph I would often look at it upside down. I don't this works for every image, but it is a good guide to see if some form of aesthetic composition is at play.

Do you teach photography Clive?

 

[cliveh]

I

Do you teach photography Clive?

I am now retired, but I spent my last 25 when working teaching A-Level photography.

 

[nikos79]

I


I am now retired, but I spent my last 25 when working teaching A-Level photography.

Very cool. Apart from the the technical stuff I find it very difficult to teach photography

 

[Willy T]

When a student would present me with a photograph I would often look at it upside down. I don't this works for every image, but it is a good guide to see if some form of aesthetic composition is at play.

An effective evaluative tool. Been doing this forever on my own stuff after learning it in art class.