Have I got diluted TEA? Making 510-Pyro.

[warmtone]

Confirming the measured ph of the working soon is 8 7.
The stock TEA soln measured at 11.5

 

[Alan Johnson]

Will the working solution pH 8.7 develop a film leader [known OK film, not the stuff you got blanks with]?
That should eliminate a developer problem from consideration.

 

[warmtone]

Well I parked the Pyro 510 issue for today and tried Pyrocat HDC - using the same film - Today Trix - 320.
The Trix was exposed at ASA200. developed in the expert drum 1+1+ 500 water.
I used the same processing workflow -What a difference!
I noticed the Pyrocat HD in Glycol properly developed the Kodak 320 factory insert on the edge of the film - the Pyro 510 did not.

 

[warmtone]

Will the working solution pH 8.7 develop a film leader [known OK film, not the stuff you got blanks with]?
That should eliminate a developer problem from consideration.

Hi Alan agreed - will do tomorrow!

 

[lamerko]

I switched to Pyrocat-HD in Glycol. The last time I bought TEA was nearly a year ago. I haven't opened this bottle yet, but the viscosity seems low. Maybe it's a mixture with DEA. I have no idea if it will work the same way or if it is useless. But it looks like this is the last time I buy - all suppliers refuse to sell to private individuals because TEA is listed as a precursor to chemical weapons...

 

[warmtone]

I switched to Pyrocat-HD in Glycol. The last time I bought TEA was nearly a year ago. I haven't opened this bottle yet, but the viscosity seems low. Maybe it's a mixture with DEA. I have no idea if it will work the same way or if it is useless. But it looks like this is the last time I buy - all suppliers refuse to sell to private individuals because TEA is listed as a precursor to chemical weapons...

Well the Pyrocat in Glycol seems to be fuss free - it just works.

But many people rave about Pyro 510 so I am keen to resolve the issue I have experienced.
I am starting to think film speed is much lower than than expected and the development time need to be increased for TRiX 320.

I can't believe the commercial Pyro 510 I purchased from Zone Imaging is a dud.........
This was purchased to establish a reference for what Pyro 510 could do - I was expecting superb results.
But the result om TRix 320 was no different from my own mix - a failed negative.
Very strange.

In contrast, Pyrocat HD Glycol has impressed me with both tonality and sharpness so I can progress now focus on making new images.

 

[Ian Grant]

I have to admit I'm a relatively new user to Pyrocat HD, I think I tried first a few weeks ago back in 2004..

Actually it's the only film developer I've used for my own films since them, I have mixed and used other developers for other peoples films.

I have made up Pyrocat HD in Glycol, but it's a false econamic expensive premise - yes it will extend the shelf life of Part A, but many years experience have shown that Part A made up in water can last around 4 years, what is critical us how fresh is your Metabisulphite.

Ian

 

[lamerko]

Well, how much more expensive. A liter of pure propylene glycol costs $5.25 including VAT. This is enough for 50-100 liters of working solution or five-ten cents per liter

 

[warmtone]

I have to admit I'm a relatively new user to Pyrocat HD, I think I tried first a few weeks ago back in 2004..

Actually it's the only film developer I've used for my own films since them, I have mixed and used other developers for other peoples films.

I have made up Pyrocat HD in Glycol, but it's a false econamic expensive premise - yes it will extend the shelf life of Part A, but many years experience have shown that Part A made up in water can last around 4 years, what is critical us how fresh is your Metabisulphite.

Ian

Ian, an interesting comment re Sod Met - I have only just recently become aware that it does not last forever!
I think you are correct! According to John Finch (Pictorial Planet) Phenidone is another one that needs to be managed.

 

[koraks]

According to John Finch (Pictorial Planet) Phenidone is another one that needs to be managed.

Phenidone in dry form is stable over many years in a properly sealed container. As a concentrate in glycol, it's also highly stable for up to a few years at least.

what is critical us how fresh is your Metabisulphite.

If metabisulfite powder would deteriorate rapidly due to reaction with aerial oxygen, you'd be met with a cloud of SO2 every time you opened up the bottle that would blow you off your socks. Since this doesn't happen, the deterioration is apparently only marginal (provided it's stored dry in a properly sealed container) and of no concern. At least, it isn't in my experience.

It's not a good idea of course to store metabisulfite in a poorly sealed container, like a glass jar with a cork or a glass stopper loosely wedged in it (once upon a time a common, but often unfortunate way to store chemicals). Indeed, I have some metabisulfite my father stored under such conditions for a couple of decades and it's now a deliquesced mass of mostly sodium sulfate. Stored in e.g. a HDPE or even a glass jar with a tighlty fitting screw-on cap (a common way to store chemistry in modern times), it's really quite stable.

But many people rave about Pyro 510 so I am keen to resolve the issue I have experienced.

The issue itself remains puzzling; I'm not sure how you ran into a virtually inactive developer both by DIY-ing it and purchasing it off the shelf. It's either a remarkable coincidence, or there's some common cause to both faults that we're overlooking.
Btw, concerning the 'magic' of 510 pyro: I guess it's subjective. IMO it's really nothing special. It does tend to oxidize pretty rapidly in a working solution, throwing down lots of overall stain on the negatives. I suppose some people find this a 'good' sign because the negatives have this distinct pyro-look to them (i.e. they're all brownish/tan, even the parts with no silver density...) Personally, I find this undesirable especially when working with negatives for alt. process printing, because it just adds unnecessary density. In a direct comparison, I personally prefer xtol/instant mytol for enlarged negatives, and pyrocat I find a convenient soup because of the space-efficient concentrates combined with the ease of mixing working strength developer. For contact printing alt. process negatives that require a massive tonal range, I prefer a fast-working non-staining developer followed by intensification of the negative to reach the desired density range.
I do keep a bottle of 510 concentrate at hand to play with from time to time, but each time I mess about with it, I walk away unimpressed. It's OK, but nothing more than that. There are better compromises out there.

 

[Ian Grant]

Phenidone in dry form is stable over many years in a properly sealed container. As a concentrate in glycol, it's also highly stable for up to a few years at least.



If metabisulfite powder would deteriorate rapidly due to reaction with aerial oxygen, you'd be met with a cloud of SO2 every time you opened up the bottle that would blow you off your socks. Since this doesn't happen, the deterioration is apparently only marginal (provided it's stored dry in a properly sealed container) and of no concern. At least, it isn't in my experience.

It's not a good idea of course to store metabisulfite in a poorly sealed container, like a glass jar with a cork or a glass stopper loosely wedged in it (once upon a time a common, but often unfortunate way to store chemicals). Indeed, I have some metabisulfite my father stored under such conditions for a couple of decades and it's now a deliquesced mass of mostly sodium sulfate. Stored in e.g. a HDPE or even a glass jar with a tighlty fitting screw-on cap (a common way to store chemistry in modern times), it's really quite stable.

Phenidone is stable for years as you say, I still have some Ilford Phenidone which I bought around 1976/7 that was made in 1961, it still works perfectly although I use much newer Phenidone now.

I didn't say Metabisulphite deteriorates rapidly, but it does slowly break down to Sulphite. If there's not a strong SO2 smell when you open its container then it is not going to be effective. My point though was with only 10g in a litre of Pyrocat HD part A fresher Metabisulpite will help lengthen the shelf life. In practice I actually use 15g of Metabisulphiteas the level of Sulphite formed when mixed and diluted is too low to affect staining etc.

Ian

 

[warmtone]

Important Update re Zone Imaging Pyro 510.
I have discovered after communicating with the manufacturer that mixing the highly viscous small quantity of developer requires a LOT of care. Inadequate mixing can lead to thin negs or even complete failure as I discovered.
I am pleased to say that the Pyro 510 I purchased works fine once stirred for a full 2 minutes when water is added.
in my case 5ml to 500 ml was used to develop two sheets of 5x7 FP4 plus in a Jobo expert drum - dev time 7 minutes slowest rotation in Jobo CPE2.
I revisited my home brew 510 disaster posted above with the hope it was not sufficiently mixed………
‘but no luck - blank film.