Have I got diluted TEA? Making 510-Pyro.

[pentaxuser]

OP: if you suspect that the TEA you've at disposal contains water, you can make a long lasting concentrate of 510-Pyro that uses Propylene Glycol instead of TEA and add appropriate amount of TEA directly to the working solution. Or you can leave out TEA and use a Carbonate-bicarbonate buffer to get the same pH as 510-Pyro working solution.

Can you give us what you have to do in specific terms in these alternative methods? Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[john_s]

I bought TEA 99% from a local manufacturer of specialist lubricants. I don't know where or how TEA fits into lubricants. However it's viscous and totally colorless, FWIW.

 

[berntln]

I finally got a new bottle of TEA from another supplier. This one is thick like syrup as expected, and the newly mixed 510-pyro works like it should, so I am very happy now. Thank you all!

 

[john_s]

I finally got a new bottle of TEA from another supplier. This one is thick like syrup as expected, and the newly mixed 510-pyro works like it should, so I am very happy now. Thank you all!

Good job, problem solved. Do you get reasonable shadow density? I ask because I didn't when I mixed batch of 510-Pyro. Effective film speed was very low, maybe 2 stops under box speed.

 

[juan]

I had problems with shadow density with 510 Pyro, too. Not enough for me, but some people are fine with what they get.

 

[berntln]

Tmax 400 gave thin shadows and low contrast, I had to print at grade 4, next fiIm was increased from 7 to 9 minutes at 20C (1+100), that helped, maybe my themometer is a bit off. I am going to make an exposure test by shooting a grey card to test if four stop underexposure gives the slightest possible density increase over film base.

 

[juan]

Jay always said his photographic interest was in photographing his family. Thus he was most concerned with rendering Caucasian skin tones. I think he wasn’t as concerned with shadows as we landscape photographers are.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Jay always said his photographic interest was in photographing his family. Thus he was most concerned with rendering Caucasian skin tones. I think he wasn’t as concerned with shadows as we landscape photographers are.

But there is significant user base for 510-Pyro both in UK and Germany where people have been using this developer for all genre of photography. I've not heard anyone complaining about losing two stops speed. Interestingly, those users are using 510-Pyro batches prepared by just two persons - Rudiger Hartung and James Lane which reduces user error in mixing.

 

[john_s]

It was I who complained about the loss of speed. But I found this at:

http://www.pictorialplanet.com/advanced_photography/510_pyro.html

I used the original formulation. Maybe the extra phenidone would have been better.

<start of quote>

Formula for 510-Pyro stock:

TEA (Triethanolamine) 75ml
Ascorbic Acid 5g
Pyrogallol 10g
Phenidone 0.375g *
TEA to make 100ml

* Updated from the original 0.25g of phenidone by Jay DeFehr "To optimise the three way relationship between pyrogallol, ascorbic acid and phenidone"

 

[grainyvision]

The only source in the US I've found of proper undiluted TEA is The Chemistry Store. I've bought TEA from 3 other sources, all were low freeze grade. Notable bad sources were Photographer's Formulary and Artcraft. You can confirm if your TEA is diluted by keeping a small amount in a closed container and putting that container in your fridge for a few days (for some reason the pure stuff is resistant to freezing sometimes). If the solution eventually freezes, then you have pure undiluted TEA. If the solution does not freeze then it is diluted or "low freeze grade". Furthermore, the solution should be clear or very slightly yellow. If it is a deeper yellow then it is likely 85% TEA which has a significant amount of DEA and MEA contaminant. You can also determine this by testing pH as DEA and MEA are significantly more alkali. It is possible that you can have diluted 85% TEA as well, I have some which I believe came from Artcraft. The freeze test is the best way to test for dilution though in my opinion. 99% TEA has a slightly lower freezing point than 85% TEA also. When getting new TEA, even from the same supplier, always test it. I had some TEA from 2018 which was purchased from Artcraft and is 85%, undiluted. and also some from 2020 which is diluted 85%

edit: as of my last purchase, Photographer's Formulary sells diluted 99% and Artcraft sells diluted 85%.

 

[berntln]

The only source in the US I've found of proper undiluted TEA is The Chemistry Store. I've bought TEA from 3 other sources, all were low freeze grade. Notable bad sources were Photographer's Formulary and Artcraft. You can confirm if your TEA is diluted by keeping a small amount in a closed container and putting that container in your fridge for a few days (for some reason the pure stuff is resistant to freezing sometimes). If the solution eventually freezes, then you have pure undiluted TEA. If the solution does not freeze then it is diluted or "low freeze grade". Furthermore, the solution should be clear or very slightly yellow. If it is a deeper yellow then it is likely 85% TEA which has a significant amount of DEA and MEA contaminant. You can also determine this by testing pH as DEA and MEA are significantly more alkali. It is possible that you can have diluted 85% TEA as well, I have some which I believe came from Artcraft. The freeze test is the best way to test for dilution though in my opinion. 99% TEA has a slightly lower freezing point than 85% TEA also. When getting new TEA, even from the same supplier, always test it. I had some TEA from 2018 which was purchased from Artcraft and is 85%, undiluted. and also some from 2020 which is diluted 85%

edit: as of my last purchase, Photographer's Formulary sells diluted 99% and Artcraft sells diluted 85%.

Thank you Ashley for this info. I have now put a small bottle in the fridge to see if it freezes
Bernt

 

[berntln]

It was I who complained about the loss of speed. But I found this at:

http://www.pictorialplanet.com/advanced_photography/510_pyro.html

I used the original formulation. Maybe the extra phenidone would have been better.

<start of quote>

Formula for 510-Pyro stock:

TEA (Triethanolamine) 75ml
Ascorbic Acid 5g
Pyrogallol 10g
Phenidone 0.375g *
TEA to make 100ml

* Updated from the original 0.25g of phenidone by Jay DeFehr "To optimise the three way relationship between pyrogallol, ascorbic acid and phenidone"

Lets hope that explains it. Are you going to make a new badge?
Bernt

 

[john_s]

Lets hope that explains it. Are you going to make a new badge?
Bernt

new batch?

No, I'm happy with Pyrocat-HD, and ID-68 occasionally for low light portraits and children. No need to change what's working.

 

[warmtone]

It’s a while since there has been a post on this thread that I have just finished reading.
Like the first poster I have had a total failure after mixing 510 Pyro.

All chemicals were fresh and the Tea solution was supposed to be 100 percent pure.
It was clear and viscous and mixing was tedious even after heating to 80 deg C.

I followed carefully the instructions in the Pictorial Planet video provided earlier in this thread.
I developed 2 sheets of tri X in a Jobo expert drum and processor With slow rotation.
500ml water to 5ml Pyro 510 freshly mixed. Developed 9 mins @ 21
The Film came out completely clear! I have never had such a failure with Pyricat HD or PMK.
Is there bad TEA?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

It’s a while since there has been a post on this thread that I have just finished reading.
Like the first poster I have had a total failure after mixing 510 Pyro.

All chemicals were fresh and the Tea solution was supposed to be 100 percent pure.
It was clear and viscous and mixing was tedious even after heating to 80 deg C.

I followed carefully the instructions in the Pictorial Planet video provided earlier in this thread.
I developed 2 sheets of tri X in a Jobo expert drum and processor With slow rotation.
500ml water to 5ml Pyro 510 freshly mixed. Developed 9 mins @ 21
The Film came out completely clear! I have never had such a failure with Pyricat HD or PMK.
Is there bad TEA?

That's really unfortunate. I've been using 510-Pyro on and off, from the same batch I mixed up a year ago, with no issues. I got TEA from Amazon. Wee 100ml bottles. Where did you source yours from? I'm assuming you used 5ml of stock to get 500ml total working solution?

 

[warmtone]

Hi Andrew I’m in Australia so the TEA and chemicals were locally sourced.
I suspected the TEA As not being sufficiently alkaline - but the PH was measured at 11 which is fine.
The tea is 100% pure, clear and should not be an issue.
All other chemicals were fresh so I’m miffed. Ie pyro, Ascorbic acid and phenidone.
I have ordered some commercially mixed 510 to get going whilst I figure out what went wrong.
Ill post an update!

 

[lamerko]

I guess the problem is the pyrogallol. Even if there was water in the TEA, it wouldn't matter much, at least in the short term. Ascorbic acid is also a candidate for problems, but unlikely. Phenidone is in too small amounts to matter.

 

[warmtone]

Hi Lamerko thanks for your advice above.
I think you may be correct and I plan to remix eliminating the “fresh” pyro.
I have been using various pyro formulas for years and even old pyro works - albeit with faster oxidation.
‘The commercial pyro 510 is made in the UK should arrive today so I will have a reference.

 

[warmtone]

Well the pyro 510 arrived today and I enthusiastically exposed two sheets of 5X4 Tri - X 320 @ ASA 200.
The first image was taken outside in bright sunlight the second in my wife’s studio.
‘The films were developed in a Jobo cpp2 at minimum rotation speed for 8 minutes @ 21 deg C
Jobo expert drum with 500ml of developer (5ml of Pyro 510). I used a 1 minute pre soak.
I used a plain water stop and TF-2 alkaline fixer for 5 minutes and the usual plain water wash.

The results were yet another complete disaster. At first I thought there was 2 blank sheets of film
- on closer examination the highlights were about zone1 density…….
Not the well graded rich pyro negative I had expected!

The film is a few years past its use by date but has been well stored.
I am at a loss to understand what is happening with this developer?
It seems there is a major loss of film speed for reasons that are unclear.

I have been developing pyro negs since the 80’s and never had such a problem.

 

[removedacct3]

That is a bummer! Time to (double) check the entire photographic process. Film, camera and the like.

Does the film give usable results when used in a different camera and/or developed in another developer? Does the camera's shutter work as expected?

 

[warmtone]

I am using a a Linhof Teknika 5x4 and a Nikon M300 Lens.
All in A1 condition the Nikon uses the reliable Copal shutter. The shutter is working as expected.
Not much to go wrong - usually lenses will run a bit slow and more likely to over expose.
But yes, agreed time to check everything!
PS - the last time I used the same Tri-X film was with Pyrocat HD - the negatives were superb.
I will recheck the film with Pyrocat HD.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Are you sure that the TEA is not just some kind of weak cosmetic solution?
What is the pH of the working solution [1:100] containing the ascorbic acid?

 

[warmtone]

As posted above the TEA soon is 11.5.
‘The PH of the developer mixed at 500ml water to 5ml pyro 510 is 8.7

 

[warmtone]

The above PH refers to the commercial Pyro 510 from Zone Imaging in the UK.

 

[Alan Johnson]

As posted above the TEA soon is 11.5.
‘The PH of the developer mixed at 500ml water to 5ml pyro 510 is 8.7

This is ambiguous, what is the pH of your working solution including TEA, ascorbic acid and pyro diluted 1:100.
You need to actually measure it, as you point out it should be around 8.7 if your TEA is the pure stuff.