Have I got diluted TEA? Making 510-Pyro.

berntln · Oct 14, 2021

I have acquired a bottle of Triethanolamine (TEA) and the other ingredients to mix 510-Pyro for the first time.
I expected the TEA to have a sirup like consistency, but the one I got from Ebay is not thick at all (e.g. like Kodak HC110), it has a consistency more like water. The bottle is marked "Azure Triethanolamine chemically pure form pH adjuster CAS No 102-71-6". I gave it a try yesterday and followed the mixing instruction given by Pictorial Planet on Youtube, heating the tea to 80C so that the ascorbin acid, the pyrallgol and the phenidone easily got disolved. I then developed a test-film that came out completely blank (even without frame numbers on the film edge) so to me it looked like no development took place at all.
Have I got a wrong kind of TEA?
It could also be the other chemicals that are old and non-working of course, but they all looked white and fresh to me.
Have any of you bought "thin" TEA that didn't work?
Bernt LN

Donald Qualls · Oct 14, 2021

Your CAS number is correct, but I agree, everything I've read says TEA should be thick, like honey; further, it should slowly solidify barely below room temperature (melting point 20.5 C).

Can you test the pH of a sample in water solution?

berntln · Oct 14, 2021

Thank you Donald, so I have to find another supplier. I do not have a pH-strip at the moment, but what should the pH of the tea be?

craigclu · Oct 14, 2021

Yes, as Donald mentioned, TEA is quite thick and I've learned to keep it stored in a warmer part of my house, rather than my basement darkroom as it has solidified for me when the darkroom gets too chilled in Wisconsin winters.

Also, when testing out the 510, be ready for a "look" of its own. I could never get the shadow detail that I desired for many things I attempted with it. For certain subjects, it could be ideal and in the samples from Jay, his style fit with the 510 quite well. It gives great detail and middle contrast is great, along with reasonably controlled highlights. If you get some working TEA, give PyroCat-MC a try. Very stable, good detail (edge effect on certain things, ie: eye lashes). Have fun!

Donald Qualls · Oct 14, 2021

You won't be able to measure it's pH in anhydrous form, but in water, it should be approximately 10 (similar to a sodium carbonate solution with a little buffering by sodium bicarbonate, IIRC). Before you go so far as to replace it, try a quickie PC-TEA with a vitamin C tablet. Quarter teaspoon of your TEA in a cup of water, one 1000 mg vitamin C tablet, stir until fully dissolved, and drop in a piece of film leader in the light. That's not at all precise, but it ought to develop film and let you test whether the TEA is the problem.

pentaxuser · Oct 14, 2021

Just curious, if the CAS number is correct then what else might be the cause of non development at all i.e. not even edge numbers? Assuming that another liquid was not substituted for the genuine TEA, can very old TEA just totally cease to work? The OP has decided to change his supplier of TEA (presumably) but mentions other chems which might be old so it might be them?

pentaxuser

Donald Qualls · Oct 14, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Assuming that another liquid was not substituted for the genuine TEA, can very old TEA just totally cease to work?

TEA is a pure compound (or should be), so the worst that would happen with long storage is it would oxidize. I don't know what TEA oxidizes into, however, or what its pH (or viscosity) would be, but I don't recall Gainer saying anything about it in all I've read from him about PC-TEA.

The other chems being at fault is why I suggested a Q&D PC-TEA -- most folks have some vitamin C around, and that stuff has only that, TEA, and after dilution, water. Now, ascorbate that's been stored too long can oxidize, or impurities in the water (copper or iron) can cause Fenton reaction that pretty quickly destroys the ascorbate, so that's another possibility -- but using a vitamin tablet instead of the ascorbate purchased for the 510 will control against that (to some extent).

juan · Oct 14, 2021

I’ve learned that there is TEA and then there is 99% TEA. Ashley has done some research on this. Search for member earlz.
I get my TEA from The Chemistry Store.

john_s · Oct 14, 2021

Some TEA is a mixture of TEA and DEA but that should still work.
I made some 510-Pyro because the elegance of the formula intrigued me, but like craigclu said in his post above, film speed was seriously deficient. Just one data point, I admit.
It was the only time I ever got unexpected results and I've mixed quite a few developers over the years.

(Actually I now remember I did once have an unexpected result when I found that my stock solution of phenidone in alcohol failed. But that's another story.)

Tom Kershaw · Oct 14, 2021

john_s said:
I made some 510-Pyro because the elegance of the formula intrigued me, but like craigclu said in his post above, film speed was seriously deficient. Just one data point, I admit.

I have used Pyrocat-HD in the past but I'm not sure what benefit 510-Pyro gives compared to Sandy King's formula? On the main subject, my bottle of TEA is highly viscous, absolutely nowhere near that of water.

Patrick Robert James · Oct 14, 2021

I've had mixed luck with TEA over the years. I avoid it now. If you want a no nonsense staining developer try PMK. After many years of using PMK then many years of using Pyrocat, I now just use PMK. I think it is the best staining developer.

pentaxuser · Oct 15, 2021

Tom Kershaw said:
On the main subject, my bottle of TEA is highly viscous, absolutely nowhere near that of water.

I have no experience of TEA but it sounds very much that it is inherently highly viscous and does not lose this quality with age. Maybe some other liquid was placed in a container that once held genuine TEA so either the seller has committed a fraud via e-bay( not unheard of) or was sold or given the container and assumed it was genuine TEA which was sold as such

If it were me, I'd want to pursue the matter with e-bay

pentaxuser

juan · Oct 15, 2021

There is also low freeze point TEA which I would be suspicious of.

Donald Qualls · Oct 15, 2021

From the description in the OP, I suspect what was sold was a small percentage solution of TEA in water. Labeling as "pH adjuster" may be the clue -- TEA in pure form has many other uses. The CAS number would be the same, I think, since dilution in water doesn't change the hazards or handling other than how much you need. Combing the eBay listing might reveal weasel-wording, or this might actually be intentional fraud or an honest mistake by a less than fully informed seller (though that's on the edge of fraud, too -- if you're going to sell something that isn't a one-off item, shouldn't you know enough about it to support your buyers?).

Donald Qualls · Oct 15, 2021

Well, there's scratch mixing and there's scratch mixing. Making up D-76 from scratch doesn't require any chemicals that are hard to source (at least in USA) -- metol and hydroquinone come from Artcraft, Formulary, Digitaltruth, etc., and sodium sulfite is easily obtained (I got my current bag on Amazon). You can use borax from the laundry aisle of the supermarket.

If you're making something a little exotic like 510 Pyro or PC-TEA, you need a way to at least be sure of your chemicals, as well as protect yourself from the more toxic ingredients. Still doesn't require the knowledge and skills of a lab chemist, IMO. Someone who survived and passed a lab-based freshman chemistry course in college should be able to handle this.

Tom Kershaw · Oct 15, 2021

michael_r said:
2. Certain things should probably be avoided, including pyrogallol.

I've managed to avoid using pyrogallol in my darkroom, and don't think my photographic work has suffered from it. I have handled catechol, but very carefully and in small quantities.
On the other hand, see this video from 4 minutes in (no gloves)...
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Donald Qualls · Oct 15, 2021

michael_r said:
Not suggesting you need to be a lab chemist. But if you're inexperienced:

1. Deal with reputable photochem suppliers including the ones you listed
2. Certain things should probably be avoided, including pyrogallol.

I won't argue with any of that. At the very least, do your research on how to protect yourself. When I took Chem 101 in 1978 we dealt with stuff that was more immediately hazardous than pyrogallol, in a lab full of 18-19 year old freshmen -- but we had lab assistants on hand and each reaction was explained, in detail, along with the hazards of the reagents and reaction products. The only time I was nervous was the day we had to use sodium cyanide for something (I've forgotten what -- it was over 40 years ago, after all). We did NOT, however, handle stuff like the mercury and fluorine compounds some of the research fellows did, and the quantities we used were such that even the known carcinogens were only long-term exposure hazards, nothing acute.

I would certainly suggest buying TEA from a supplier endorsed by others here -- did Gainer ever tell us where he got his?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 15, 2021

Tom Kershaw said:
On the other hand, see this video from 4 minutes in (no gloves)...

And this video:

Tom Kershaw · Oct 15, 2021

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
And this video

On the basis of these video I'm overdoing the protective measures... I do however note Jay DeFehr advocates wearing gloves and a dust mask in the YouTube comments section.

Donald Qualls · Oct 15, 2021

I certainly don't see any harm in adding gloves and a dust mask to any procedure. When I could get them easily, I was wearing gloves for processing color film (common B&W developers don't really need such, except for Rodinal concentrate, which I haven't used in a while); now that the supply crunch has eased I should get a couple boxes again.

pentaxuser · Oct 15, 2021

Tom Kershaw said:
I've managed to avoid using pyrogallol in my darkroom, and don't think my photographic work has suffered from it. I have handled catechol, but very carefully and in small quantities.
On the other hand, see this video from 4 minutes in (no gloves)...

However to be fair to the gent, he tells his audience that he is mixing outside on a still day and at no time in the video does he so much as touch the pyrogallol

pentaxuser

Tom Kershaw · Oct 15, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
except for Rodinal concentrate

I would tend to agree with this and use gloves for handling the Rodinal concentrate, along with 80% acetic acid etc.

berntln · Oct 15, 2021

Thank you all for the replies. I don't think I will give up mixing 510-pyro, rather try an other more reliable supplier of TEA.
Last night I put the TEA bottle in the fridge, this morning it was still floating like water, so for sure something is wrong.

Donald Qualls · Oct 15, 2021

berntln said:
Last night I put the TEA bottle in the fridge, this morning it was still floating like water, so for sure something is wrong.

Full strength TEA can take a good while to freeze -- buy you should see some change after being in the fridge overnight. Not sure what you got, but it's not the right thing...

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 15, 2021

OP: if you suspect that the TEA you've at disposal contains water, you can make a long lasting concentrate of 510-Pyro that uses Propylene Glycol instead of TEA and add appropriate amount of TEA directly to the working solution. Or you can leave out TEA and use a Carbonate-bicarbonate buffer to get the same pH as 510-Pyro working solution.

Have I got diluted TEA? Making 510-Pyro.

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