Have I been shilled/scammed: Jobo CPE 2 on ebay

[bdial]

There are many ebay sellers with much higher ratings who wouldn't give you the time of day, much less a refund on something you personally inspected. He might be a new ebay trader, but it sounds like he fully deserves the good ratings he's received so far.
Good to hear you got through this ok. At least you gained quite a learning experience.
BTW, welcome to apug!

 

[perkeleellinen]

To end this saga, the seller just came and picked it up and gave me my cash back, and said he was going to dump the lot at the tip on the way home.

Drive down this afternoon. He may have left it with the electrical waste rather than throwing it into the household rubbish pit. If it's there, you could pick it back up for free!

 

[werra]

Drive down this afternoon. He may have left it with the electrical waste rather than throwing it into the household rubbish pit. If it's there, you could pick it back up for free!

Yeah, and sell the unit on 'bay as spares, keep the drums

 

[Peter de Groot]

Well that seems like a waste! I once bought a jobo processor where the guy made some modifications witht a new thermostat. I am not technical but it looked like I could have done it. And maybe you could have sold it indeed for spare parts telling the folks what is wrong with it.

 

[GeorgeDexter]

For what it's worth, I think it's perfectly acceptable to negotiate a partial refund. If the seller was going to discard the object out of frustration, he'll likely take anything you'll give him for it. As you said, he sounds like a decent person. The worst you could do was offend him, but if handled tactfully I doubt that would be the case. Just be truthful and make him a fair offer: "I hate to see that thing go in the landfill. It has some useable parts, and may be repairable, but it's not worth our original agreed price." And then make him a reasonable offer. The worst he can say is "no." He may think he's being taken advantage of, but he should defer to your better knowledge of the machine, as he clearly has very little.

You got a lot of rude reactions to your post; people telling you that you had no recourse, etc. Good for you for researching your local laws. "Common law" or "common sense" views of legal issues are often erroneous, at least here in the US.

Good luck, and beware of "AS-IS" auctions. It was fortunate that the seller was local. If it had been an international sale, I doubt you would have gotten such a good resolution.

 

[johnnywalker]

You got off a lot luckier than you deserved.

 

[pentaxuser]

I think neither of you got what you deserved. It seems you got a duff CPE2 because in his ignorance he ran it without water. He lost what appears to be a genuine sale and you lost a previously good CPE2. I'd certainly be tempted to go back to him and suggest that all may not be lost.

If the electrician can fix it then simply offer the seller the amount you paid minus the the electrician's charge. Result = both parties satisfied and better off.

If you can, try and obtain an excellent book called "Getting to Yes - Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In" by Roger Fisher and William Ury. It is well worth the read. I recommend it to all our leaders. Our futures may all depend on people wanting to get to Yes.

pentaxuser

 

[whojammyflip]

I think neither of you got what you deserved. It seems you got a duff CPE2 because in his ignorance he ran it without water. He lost what appears to be a genuine sale and you lost a previously good CPE2. I'd certainly be tempted to go back to him and suggest that all may not be lost.

If the electrician can fix it then simply offer the seller the amount you paid minus the the electrician's charge. Result = both parties satisfied and better off.

If you can, try and obtain an excellent book called "Getting to Yes - Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In" by Roger Fisher and William Ury. It is well worth the read. I recommend it to all our leaders. Our futures may all depend on people wanting to get to Yes.

pentaxuser

The mood was very odd this morning. He called me suggesting he was around the corner and could be here in 10 minutes to give me a refund. Given he lives 40 minutes away, so I thought it would be an idea. He then arrived in 5 minutes, and was very curt and pent up. I did not feel that negotiation of price was in the offing, and the wife is fragile at the moment so I wanted him out of the house. I took the money and checked him leave. I think I will pop him on the "banned buyers list".

I then emailed him instructions on how to get his Final Value Fee back. No thanks from him, but the ebay claim is completed now, so he should be restored to his previous financial position, less a bit of petrol for ambushing me this morning.

Maybe some odd ball down at the dump is wandering around with a Minilux necklace, banging on a couple of drums with orange rings. I would have taken the drums off him, but he insisted he wanted to chuck the lot at the dump. I guess he probably has seen the light, and not binned it all, particularly as I said the 2840 costs over GBP 90 at First call photographic.

 

[whojammyflip]

'Thermocouple' as temperature sensor? Running the CPE wihout water will kill heating element. Just like switching water kettle on with no water in.

Yeah, you are right, maybe its a bimetallic strip and not a thermocouple which is used to switch the thermostat on and off. Whatever, its made out of metal and won't start melting until it hits pretty high temperatures. So my point was he is unlikely to have damaged the temperature sensor by running the CPE without the water, and it was probably bust already.

However, I reckon the heating element needs a lot of respect on one of these, as its an open water bath. Plus, it looks a lot more fragile than the element in my kettle. If you managed to crack the insulation on the CPE element, the only thing protecting you being lit up like a light bulb is the earth.

 

[whojammyflip]

I think neither of you got what you deserved. It seems you got a duff CPE2 because in his ignorance he ran it without water. He lost what appears to be a genuine sale and you lost a previously good CPE2. I'd certainly be tempted to go back to him and suggest that all may not be lost.

Another thing that jarred with me is he said he used to work in a photographic shop...I thought nothing of it at the time, as it appeared genuine. The thought now arises that maybe the unit came from a shop he worked in.

I need to stop thinking about this now. Thanks for the advice everyone.

 

[johnnywalker]

"I think I will pop him on the "banned buyers list".

You can't be serious. You had a contract with this guy to buy his machine. The contract specified the amount and the fact that there were no guarantees or refunds. When you figured the purchase wasn't to your advantage you wanted to wiggle out of the contract. The seller let you do so. What is your problem?

 

[erikg]

My goodness. Maybe you should stay away from ebay all together. Your suspicion borders on paranoia, and you wonder why the seller was less than happy to see you again. If the gear ends up in the landfill it's because you put it there. What a waste.

 

[Mahler_one]

All's well that ends well..you were lucky, and he was honest after all...

 

[walter23]

If you bid that amount it implies you were willing to pay it. Last minute sniping is common, and knowledgeable people often come to about the same opinion of what the top-end value of something is, so the price tends to settle around there.

Hi, I would really appreciate opinions on pricing of a Jobo CPE 2, which I have just won in an auction on ebay. The price shot to my top bid in the last 10 seconds, at GBP 180. The kit is used but includes a Minilux LED colour light and a couple of thermometers. I saw on the Tim Parkin video that he had paid 150 for his. The seller has a rating of 2, and the other bid came from a bidder who has no history at all. It seems I was shill bidded by a snipe bid. Is this feasible? As a general rule, I believe if you don't know who the loser is, you're the loser...do people think I have overpaid for this. Item number is 200426706130 on ebay.co.uk. Many thanks, I am due to pick this up this weekend.:confused:

 

[removed account4]

i'd be kind of cranky when i arrive at your house early too.

 

[whojammyflip]

If you bid that amount it implies you were willing to pay it. Last minute sniping is common, and knowledgeable people often come to about the same opinion of what the top-end value of something is, so the price tends to settle around there.

Yep, it was agreed further up in the post that the price paid was fair value for a unit in good condition. I sniped the auction at 6 seconds left using Gixen.

This following technique could be employed to ensure a reserve price is met for free, but would contravene eBay regs. I categorically do not condone it.

A person could set up a new and separate ebay account, load up a snipe on a web based sniper, and snipe their own auction. EBay would see that there are two different IP addresses used, and that there is no connection between seller and buyer. Therefore, they would conclude that they cannot prove shill bidding.

This would therefore undermine the value of ebay for buyers, as it guarantees one of two outcomes a) the seller gets the price he wants, b) the seller gets to retain the item, and potentially run the auction again, under a new ebay ID. Statistically, the price distribution would be skewed to the right, with a floor at the shill bid price. Basically, it shafts the buyer. One characteristic would be a sniped bid from an eBay account with no bidding history, as happened here.

I am detailing this for anyone who was unclear at what was implied at the beginning of the post. The issue was whether the auction had been shilled, not a question of value per se. Hence the title of the post "have I been shilled/scammed". I hope this information may help others on the forum, who find themselves in a similar position.

As it is, the whole experience has illustrated that temperature requirements for colour has equipment complications for me, which mean my enlarger will end up doing B&W printing instead, maybe employing a Paterson thermo drum or something of that ilk. Indeed, a friend has shown me some large 8x10 B&W prints in the flesh and I am amazed at how powerful they look. The C41 rolls will be mailed to Digitalab and, dare I say it, scanned!

 

[Steve Smith]

If you bid that amount it implies you were willing to pay it. Last minute sniping is common, and knowledgeable people often come to about the same opinion of what the top-end value of something is, so the price tends to settle around there.

I agree. If you win an auction it is because the price reached a point which was higher than anyone else wanted to pay but lower than or equal to the maximum you wanted to pay.


How it got up to that price is irrelevant. If a bank of inter-connected super-computers did the bidding against you, that is just as relevant as another person doing the bidding.

You have no grounds for complaint if you win a bid at a price you agreed to pay.


Steve.

 

[whojammyflip]

For anyone interested in Jobo repairs, an email from Jobo:

The thermostat is on stock.
Article number: 95178 net price 45,80 Euro.
the motor is not on stock but yu can send it for repair.
The adress is :
Klaus -D.Seynsche Fotolaborservice
Feldstr.41
51702 Bergneustadt
Looking forward to hear from you soon and best regards

 

[whojammyflip]

I think shill bidding is banned?

 

[perkeleellinen]

The issue as I see it is not so much about what you are prepared to pay, but rather the shill bidder below you was never prepared to pay what they bid. Understood like this, I can sympathise. That said, it highlights a problem with sniping software in that the bidder does not follow the auction closely and often misses shill bidding (such as many incremental bids and retracted bids).

 

[Ian Grant]

Have you got a personal grudge against the seller ? Perhaps someone should send him the link to your posts here and let him give his side of the story.

 

[Steve Smith]

I think shill bidding is banned?

Yes but it's not worth worrying about because the bid price can still reach your maximum by legitimate means.


Steve.

 

[whojammyflip]

My post [#66] explaining the shill bidding technique with a web based sniper acting as a proxy to cloak the identity of the seller was hypothetical, and returned to the beginning of the thread. It is nothing against this particular seller, and having met him, I doubt he was shill bidding. The thread continued as I had been missold a broken CPE2. I am very grateful to the helpful advice given to me here regarding getting the issue resolved, which it has been.

I emphasise again the initial issue had been about shill bidding, never about price. If I pay what I estimate is fair value, provided nothing underhand goes on in an auction, its fair game. However, when using ebay, there is economic value in the <expectation> that the price can deviate beneath fair value, <on average>. This is why ebay charges for the seller to raise the starting price or to have a reserve, as it makes items less attractive to buyers looking to monetise the value of this economic option.

This is where the concept is a bit tricky. Even if you end up paying your maximum bid, during the auction, you still had the economic value of a fair auction, and the potential to get a bargain. Its a bit like having a lottery ticket. During the period building up to the lottery, your ticket has some economic value. Even if you don't win, you still had the real benefit leading up to the end of the lottery.

Shill bidding ruins this statistical outcome, and wrecks the process for a buyer, and is therefore banned by ebay. It also undermines trust in the process and reduces the usage of ebay.

Another way of looking at is you would not go to casino and be happy if someone weighted the dice, knowlingly in their favour.

I am reminded of a Mark Twain quote, and will never post again on this thread, "Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference".

 

[Marizu]

One thing to note from the user manual - It says never to run the unit without some water in the bath. You only need a couple of litres to cover the heating element.

Hi Paul. I believe that there are two types of rollers available for the tank. The supplied type is lubricated by water and the other type is designed to run dry. For that reason, I'd recommend having the water up to the tank rollers.

 

[paul_c5x4]

Marizu - I should have said "Only a couple of litres when testing". When in use, ten to fifteen litres is required in order to ensure the processing drum is in contact with the bath.