Hassy vs. RZ: Another one of THOSE threads....

[benjiboy]

I had the RZ67 for a while. I sold it because...is large. I mostly shoot street photography. When you pull the RZ67 out of your bag, you become the center of the attention. At least, I felt that way. The camera is smaller if you are shooting with the 110 f2.8 lens. Any other lenses like the 180 or 65mm, the kit will get even larger. Is heavy too and you need a grip to shoot comfortably. Again, adding a grip would make the kit even more larger. Focusing isn't the quickest. You still need to use the magnifying glass to nail the focus unless you are stopping down to F8 to F16. Now, you have to lift a 7lb camera close to your face in order to focus through the magnifying glass. I tried to use a microprism screen, the Mamiya brand. The "spot" was too small. The vewfinder is big and bright. The size, the ergonomic, and the need to nail the focus through magnifying glass forced me to sell the kit. I wasn't shooting it enough. The image quality is really, really nice though. I ended up getting a Yashica Mat now.

One of my friends who has an RZ67 tells me every time he gets it out in public he has a crowd around him. I have used both RB and RZ cameras in the studio and they are wonderful portrait cameras on a tripod, but I would hate to lug one about for any length of time without a truss for my hernia

 

[cliveh]

One of my friends who has an RZ67 tells me every time he gets it out in public he has a crowd around him.

Then he should stop doing that and concentrate on his photography.

 

[benjiboy]

Then he should stop doing that and concentrate on his photography.

His camera I mean

 

[c6h6o3]

250mm, 80mm, 50mm, 150mm. I own each of these lenses. The 150 and the 250 are probably nearly as old as I am. (>50 years). Except for the 80, the retail price of each of these lenses was >$3000.00 in the 1990's when I bought them. Think of what that would be in today's dollars. I once dropped the camera with the 250 attached and mangled the front of the housing so badly that the metal lens shade had to be sawed off. It's still dented but the lens works perfectly as do all of the other ones. Old 'blad lenses are still magnificent glass. Ansel Adams' Moon Over Halfdome was made with a 250mm Sonnar which was probably older than mine. He cropped it and blew it up to 16x20. The 8x10 prints of that picture are razor sharp. In my opinion the prices on the lenses linked above are dirt cheap.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

btw, also check Polaroid backs out - if you like them, you might prefer one camera system's representation over the other.

(Btw - am I correct in understanding that the 500cm is all manual? )

Yes, all manual.

The Hasselblad Polaback only uses a 6x6 area of the 3"x4" instant film. It's largely a waste..... which is probably why I've not used more than a single pack in it. Ever.

 

[mweintraub]

Sell the Hassy, get a Bronica SQ-A and Mamiya RZ67.


ChristopherCoy, you need to make it up to Dallas to check out my RZ and Cowboy Studios.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I own a Hasselblad system and a Mamiya RB67SD (effectively like a RZ but no batteries). I'll start with the Hasselblad.

Hassy----
I have a Hasselblad 501CM. I have owned a Hasselblad system for 5 years now. Started with a 501CM, then replaced it with a 500ELX, then went back to a 501CM after having to repair the ELX 3 times for the same fault. Since we're talking repairs I also had to fix one A12 back for a broken frame counter (bought it like that so fair enough) and my current one probably needs to go sometime for service as I get the odd spacing issue. I have also owned at one time or another the 50CT, 50CF, 60CB, 80CB, 150CT, 150CF, 160CB and 250CT. I have the 80 now only and the 160 is on sale. Anyway...wonderful system. I use it exclusively with a PM90 prism. The tactile feeling is superb. The scans and prints I get back are just amazing. That Zeiss glass is really amazing.

HOwever...things I had to look for. For starters, unless you get a body with a Acute Matte D screen (latest type) you can't focus sh!t (well, I at least). Unless you want a split screen but I don't like these, I prefer a plain screen so I can see all around. So that's expensive if you can find one and is not included with your camera. But it is the brightest screen I've ever seen (and I have a Maxwell one so I'll come to that later). Also, servicing one of these is more expensive than most other systems.

So, overall, great system, great picture quality, the ergonomics are mostly ok though I hate that shutter button that gets tripped when it catches on my belt as I walk around (camera over shoulder) and I really find the 1/60 min shutter speed (handheld, no time for tripods) limiting. And it is expensive.

Mamiya RB----
I bought a like new (I actually think it was unboxed old stock, it was unmarked) RB67 SD last year. I now have a couple of backs, prism and have owned the following lenses, 65KL, 90KL (new), 127KL (also new!), 180KL and 250KL. These are all the latest optics and I believe are the same as the RZ optics. Ok, the camera is massive. I mean friggin huge. It makes the 501CM look like a toy, especially when I have the grip and prism on the Mamiya. However, a RB with WLF is not that much bigger in volume compared to a 500ELX.

Handling: it is heavy. I find it tricky to use without a grip. With the grip I can carry it around all day. The strap is crap though, it won't rotate and whichever of the four angles you set it to (once it is set that's it, you have to remove it to adjust it) it will be wrong, either for shooting or for carrying. So grip it is for me. Alternatively I will leave the grip home and put the camera in the bag, take it out, shoot, put it back in again. Also, without the grip focusing close makes it very front heavy and a bit unstable due to the bellows. The rotating back is just really cool. And I can shoot down to 1/15 and even 1/8. That's two stops over the Hasselblad.

Finder: When I first opened the finder I thought WOW! Hasselblad schmasselblad. That screen is like a TV. it is dark though so I eventually got myself a Bill Maxwell. Now Bill is a nice guy and that screen for the RB is very good but it is not $400 good. He tried to sell me a screen for my Hasselblad. Claimed it would be 10x brighter than my Acute Matte D just like the RB is. Well...the RB screen is not brighter. Period. It is almost as bright but not brighter. And reflects more light when looking down (probably because it is not brighter!). But the size of the screen makes it p1ss easy to focus. It is fantastic! I can reliably focus anywhere on the screen. So I would budget for a screen from Bill, I hear he makes a cheaper version (near half price) just as good nowadays...

Speed of operation: Probably as slow as the hassy. The focusing takes for ever as it is bellows. However I find the wind-on quicker (even the two step process the RB has, body+back, the RZ is single crank0. Push and done. The Hassy is twist twist twist done. I can even do the RB without taking my eye off the finder (when I have the grip of course).

Image quality: whoever says the RB/RZ optics (latest type, don't know about the older ones) are inferior to hasselblad they clearly haven't used one and are just brand snobs. The results are AMAZING. The clarity is there. The contrast. The bokeh at close-up is cream and butter. But it is a different look to the Hasselblad. The Mamiya has a more modern look, the Hasselblad is more traditional. One is not better than the other, they have a different look. Besides, one is square, the other is not!

Prices: the total cost for my **new** RB67SD, two backs, prism, 65KL, 90KL, 127KL, 180KL and 250KL is the price I paid for the 501CM+80+A12 kit. Enough said. I paid £80 for a like new 180KL. £60 for a mint back. In hasselblad-land £60 buys you a scratched lens filter. At least in the UK.

Which to have: I thought about selling the hasselblad. It collects mostly dust now that I have the RB67. I actually find the RB a nicer handling camera. It is heavy but it is actually smoother to focus (slower but lighter focusing) and the wind-on is simpler. The shutter release is soft and damped. The screen is massive. It costs nothing to buy more equipment. Servicing is cheaper. I can do close-ups without tubes or filters like you need in the hassy. I can shoot in lower light. I can shove it in a ThinkTank Retrospective and walk around for hours. My Hasselblad is a £1300-1400 (with all the accessories) collecting dust (haven't used it in 4 months). But after a lot of thought and as I was seriously tempted to sell the Hasselblad I decided to keep both, mainly on the advice of the missus (!). Different systems for different things!

It is like selling your children these things and while you know the Mamiya is the one that will do you proud every time the Hasselblad is the slightly spoilt, slightly annoying one you always forgive as it's so pretty...

What he said, especially about repairs. Note my first post on this!

PE

 

[mweintraub]

But after a lot of thought and as I was seriously tempted to sell the Hasselblad I decided to keep both, mainly on the advice of the missus (!). Different systems for different things!

I know which is a true keeper!

 

[jadphoto]

Do you want to (and can you afford to) keep the hassy on a shelf and let it appreciate in value (which it will), and shoot the RZ? Or would you have to sell one to fund the other?
If you keep the Hassy only, are you afraid to take it out of the house and shoot with it for fear it might get damaged and lose value, or are you happy to use it as intended?
If the hassy focusses slowly and dimly, have you tried an RZ enough to know that it will fix those problems? And can you live with what you've got without GASing the expensive accessories (or can you live with the cheap-but-good Soviet hassy-compatible accessories)?

I won't try to suggest which, Hassy or RZ/RB 67, is best for you. Only you can do that. However, keeping a 500cm on a shelf waiting for it to appreciate IMHO isn't going to happen. All medium format, with the exception of some rare/unusual "collector" cameras seem to be dropping in price as film choices diminish.

Precisely the opposite of the apparent trend in large format gear oddly enough.

Maybe renting/borrowing an RZ/RB would solve you conundrum for you. Others opinions, including mine by the way, are only worth the paper they're printed on...

JD

 

[Slixtiesix]

I would recommend to keep the Hasselblad. Not because the Mamiya was worse (I do not have any experience with it) but because from your writing it seems to me that you would have a hard time selling the Hasselblad.

My conundrum is whether I will really want to sell the Hasselblad or not. Its a classic and I may never find one in this condition again. I know that the equipment doesn't make the image, the photographer does, but will I regret it later on?

Practically says it all! An acute matte or acute matte D can be had for reasonable money if you have enough patience. I think a better screen is the best money you can invest in a camera like this anyway (same goes for Rollei). I myself barely used my SL66 before I installed a High D-Screen, which made a world of a difference. And the prices for Hasselblad lenses came down quite a lot recently, especially CF and CFi lenses.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

IF you are not going to use the Hasselblad regularly, then sell it. These cameras, like Leicas, Rolleis, and just about any other serious piece of photographic equipment, were made to be used regularly. The worst thing you can do to any of them is to let them sit unexercised. Their rubber and plastic bits will dry-rot, the lubricants will gum up, and you'll have a very pretty paperweight. Frankly I'd make an effort to use the Hassy more instead of shopping for more toys. I'll third/fourth/fifth the recommendation to just plunk down the money for the Acute-Matte. Back in the day, I got one for my 500C/M, and it was worth every penny. Have a little patience with looking for one and you'll find one at less-than-retail price.

 

[Alan Gales]

I took the Hasselblad 500C/M that I had in on trade. It came with the original screen and a Beattie Intenscreen. The Intenscreen was a huge improvement over the original screen.

Bright screens are not cheap but I think well worth the money. If you decide to keep the Blad I would highly recommend getting one.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

Some may laugh or scoff at this anecdote, but with two RB's and four Hassy's, I do have a few points of reference...

So, my friend, who owns an actual camera store that sells mostly used film cameras (and also does camera repair), recently showed me a Kiev 88 with an 80/2.8 and a metered eye-level finder. First time I'd ever seen one of these things. Well, I was stunned looking through the finder: it was not only bright, it was brilliant and sharp! It was far, far better than the Acute-Matte on the Hassy's. I imagine the newer Hasselblad eye-level finders are bright; I wonder if the older (much less expensive) ones are as bright?

 

[ChristopherCoy]

IF you are not going to use the Hasselblad regularly, then sell it. These cameras, like Leicas, Rolleis, and just about any other serious piece of photographic equipment, were made to be used regularly. The worst thing you can do to any of them is to let them sit unexercised. Their rubber and plastic bits will dry-rot, the lubricants will gum up, and you'll have a very pretty paperweight. Frankly I'd make an effort to use the Hassy more instead of shopping for more toys. I'll third/fourth/fifth the recommendation to just plunk down the money for the Acute-Matte. Back in the day, I got one for my 500C/M, and it was worth every penny. Have a little patience with looking for one and you'll find one at less-than-retail price.

The sad part is that if I could part with many of the cameras in my collection and only keep two or three of my absolute die hard favorites.... I could probably build a hell of a Hassy kit.

 

[mweintraub]

The sad part is that if I could part with many of the cameras in my collection and only keep two or three of my absolute die hard favorites.... I could probably build a hell of a Hassy kit.

We must suffer from the same disease.

 

[markbarendt]

The sad part is that if I could part with many of the cameras in my collection and only keep two or three of my absolute die hard favorites.... I could probably build a hell of a Hassy kit.

Something I have found is that each camera I have can do something the others can't. As much as I like my RB, the Toyo 4x5 and the Nikons and Holga and... fill other voids.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

We must suffer from the same disease.

I dont shoot the Polaroid SX-70 but maybe once or twice a year when I get a whim, but I enjoy it when I do. And its SO pretty since I had it reconditioned and recovered in baby blue leather. I mean really... who wants to sell something that gorgeous?

And I've only put a few rolls through the Yashica 635, but that little TLR is fun to shoot! I love it. I need to get it CLA'd by Mark Hama.

And doesn't everyone need 10 toy cameras? I mean what if one of the bakelite boys decides to spring a crack? They aint makin no more of them!!

 

[k.hendrik]

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
the polaroid back on the RZ & stop whining; shoot those fricking camera's and show us some results

 

[ChristopherCoy]

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
the polaroid back on the RZ & stop whining; shoot those fricking camera's and show us some results

IT USES THE WHOLE FRAME????? oooh thats nice.....

 

[mweintraub]

IT USES THE WHOLE FRAME????? oooh thats nice.....

No, it's 7cm by 7cm: like this:

 

[Dr Croubie]

No, it's 7cm by 7cm: like this:

Looks very nice with that framing actually, a hell of a lot better than the single frame of FP I shot in my Mamiya 645. Gonna sell that back, it's a rather good waste of expensive instant film...

 

[mweintraub]

Ah yes. That and the F5 polaroid backs are my least used.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[johnha]

I'm thinking of selling it in order to purchase a Mamiya RZ67 kit. I used to shoot with a Mamiya C33 so I know that I definitely like the bellows focusing, and I like the brightness of the Mamiya screens. I can still make square images with a 6x7, but it will also lend itself well to traditional sizes as well.

My reaction would be - why the RZ67 - apart from perhaps bellows focusing & possibly brighter screens (and the suggestion that square images are still possible), the benefits of the 6x7 format & rotating backs don't seem to be a big draw? The extra bulk & weight makes this a completely different camera unless you're planning to stay in the studio or close to the car*. The RZ lenses will be cheaper, but so are those from Bronica SQ, Pentax 6x7 and others (but not necessarily the Mamiya 7 - at least in the UK).

If you're unhappy focusing the Hassy, I feel you need to either sell it or get another screen/finder - which might make it much more usable/enjoyable. A camera has to make you feel good when you're using it rather than swearing at it all the time if you want to get the best out of it.

I bought a new Bronica SQ-B in the '90s instead of a used Hassy because building a lens collection was much more cost effective (or even possible). Looking back now, I'd have preferred to have bought the Hassy and built the lens collection over time (although I've never used one).

* OK, if you're dedicated enough you can carry anything anywhere with the right bag.

 

[M Carter]

Dude! (Sorry, but this sort of comment almost requires the "dude" salutation)...

Cough up a few hundred bucks and get an RB Pro S kit. jeez, you can get 'em for next to nothing, body, lens, film back & polaroid back. No need to dump the hassy.

I've shot the RZ but own the RB - it's capable of stellar shots. No, I don't handhold it. It's more of an "epic" camera to me. It's got a mojo all its own (which is why some of us love this stuff). Old school, solid, giant THUNKing sounds in use. And giant, crispy negs with lovely soft bokeh area. Just f*cking yum, pardon my french.

My living gets paid with digital... stills and lots of video, most projects with Nikon DSLRs. For video projects, I looooove the look of the Nikon footage with a classic Nikkor. But the camera itself doesn't excite me. On the other hand, I tried putting off working on a new rangefinder purchase til morning, and by 1AM realized i wasn't gonna sleep and tore the thing down.

I just took a trip to the pacific rainforest. DSLR stayed home, took a 1960's Canon FTQL with a 35 lens. It's like, "who you wanna go on vacation with"?

All this to say: The combo of classic gear and the images it can produce have a sum much greater than their parts. If something feels lacking in the Hasselblad, there may be more to it that can be grasped by your conscious mind. Find a way to spend some time with an RB or RZ and see if it cures what ails ya. Some of this decision may be beyond full rationality - they're tools for art, so maybe that should be so.

 

[David R Munson]

I own and use regularly an RZ, a 500CM, and a Mamiya 645. I have also previously owned Pentax 67 and RB67 cameras. Some points:

• It sounds like you'll miss the Hasselblad. So I say don't sell it. I'm not sure your reasoning for making a rule you can only keep one or the other, but you might reconsider it. The RZ is great, too, but they're different beasts. I use them both, but on different days and in different moods. You may find having both a valuable thing.
• The poster who said, early on, that the Mamiya is simply not in the same class as the Hasselblad is, in my opinion, totally and completely wrong. After years of shooting both myself and after dealing with both extensively over years of working as a freelance assistant to commercial photographers, it is clear to me that both are excellent.
• Along those lines, people never seem to realize just how sharp most of the RZ lenses really are. I'd put them against equivalent Hasselblad lenses any day of the week.
• Contrary to what many have said, the RZ is not a terrible walking around camera. Yes, it is bigger and heavier than the Hasselblad, but it behaves beautifully in the hand. The action of it is so smooth I am actually more comfortable hand-holding it at slow-ish speeds than I am with the Hasselblad. I regularly go out for a 10km afternoon walk with the RZ slung over my shoulder. It's a lovely thing.
• It is, of course, also a lovely thing when mounted on a tripod.
• The RZ is excellent for close-up work. The 140mm Macro is exceptional and the mirror-up function is a cinch.

There's also this:
Medium Format Camera Comparison

All in the image are the cameras I own/use, with the exception of the Pentax, which I borrowed from a friend.

There's a lot of mythology surrounding the Hasselblad, which I think is a major part of why so few people will actually come out and say something negative about them and why it is so often assumed that it is automatically superior to any other medium format camera available. Back in Chicago, the most common question I got when out with the Mamiya was, "Is that a Hasselblad?" It occupies a certain position as a cultural icon. Not without good reason, I'd add, but it's important not to let that muddy the waters of judgement.