Hassy vs. RZ: Another one of THOSE threads....

ChristopherCoy said:

It can't be any more cumbersome than the C33 can it? That thing was like hanging a brick around my neck...

And its not that the Hassy is cumbersome per say, its that the focusing is cumbersome. You have to hold the camera with your left hand, and kind of cross your right hand over your left to focus with the speed ring attached. And its not the loosest focusing system either.

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I have a C33 and A C330F and I used to sell the RB and RZ professionally, and I can assure you Christopher the RB and RZ are much more cumbersome to hand hold, but on a firm tripod they are gentle giants.

frank said:

This caused me confusion. Why is the speed ring handle over there? Just rotate it to where it's convenient, no?

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The speed ring will start out all the way on the left, but if you focus close up, you have to turn it all the way to the left causing your arms to cross.... if you're using the speed ring.

If you aren't using the speed ring, then you just have to rub your fingertips raw turning it and turning it, and turning it again.

benjiboy said:

If you think a Hasselblad 500 CM is " cumbersome ", you will be going from the frying pan into the fire with an RZ 67.

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Its not the size that's an issue. Its the focusing!!!!!

frank said:

If the focus screen is the main issue, and the accumatte screen is too expensive, there are cheaper alternatives that are brighter than what you've got in your Hasselblad now.

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Links? Brands? I'd love to hear more, other than the chinese plastic stuff from fleabay.

having used both it is fair to say the image quality of both cameras is effectively identical.

RB/RZ pros:
will give you a larger neg (only really useful if cropping to 4x5 or 2x3 since you lose a lot of square neg that way).
better close focusing due to bellows
cheaper

Hasselblad pros:
much more portable
zone/hyperfocal focusing is easier because of the lens markings due to helical focus.

At the end of the day it really boils down to the Hasselblad costing more for being easier to carry around. The RB/RZ has better image quality per dollar but the tradeoff is the weight and size. You just have to decide which is more important to you personally.

ChristopherCoy said:

Links? Brands? I'd love to hear more, other than the chinese plastic stuff from fleabay.

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There's bill maxwell

http://photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/0045yw

And beatie intenscreen

http://www.camerascreens.com/index.php

This may be outdated info. It's been a while since I bought a screen.

Photo Engineer said:

I have been reading threads here for years, and I am going to stir up a firestorm with this.

I see more threads about problems with older Hasselblads than I do with any other MF camera. This stuck, that jammed, can't do this anymore and etc. And the repairs cost an arm and a leg.
Think what you will but please hear me out and see if I am not right. I may just be comparing cost with problem and saying to myself "those are lots of problems for such a high end camera". But then, if true, why so many for such a high end camera anyhow.
PE

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That's an interesting perspective - on the possible issues.

That said, Christopher,

ChristopherCoy said:

It can't be any more cumbersome than the C33 can it? That thing was like hanging a brick around my neck...
And its not that the Hassy is cumbersome per say, its that the focusing is cumbersome. You have to hold the camera with your left hand, and kind of cross your right hand over your left to focus with the speed ring attached. And its not the loosest focusing system either.

Click to expand...

To me, the problem seems like your preference for bellows focusing v/s pref for lower-med weight v/s pref for higher range of lenses.

I am not sure you'll get a camera system to check off on all these. I would say pick two, and go with the flow on the other - and from your posts, it seems to me that Bellows focusing is something you'd prefer.

(I have an RB and the bellows focus is something that really makes shooting that much more easy/fun for me)

As an owner and lover of a RZ, if you are shooting hand held this is not the camera for you. I have done it but it is not fun, it pretty much lives on my tripod. Have you considered a Pentax 67 or maybe a Mamiya 6/7? If I was shooting mostly hand held those would be the cameras I would be looking into.

frank said:

There's bill maxwell

http://photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/0045yw

And beatie intenscreen

http://www.camerascreens.com/index.php

This may be outdated info. It's been a while since I bought a screen.

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Is one of those guys the one who was from TN I think, but may have passed a few years ago?


ETA: And the Beatie screens are just as much as the Acute Matte.... $376!!

analoguey said:

That's an interesting perspective - on the possible issues.

That said, Christopher,



To me, the problem seems like your preference for bellows focusing v/s pref for lower-med weight v/s pref for higher range of lenses.

I am not sure you'll get a camera system to check off on all these. I would say pick two, and go with the flow on the other - and from your posts, it seems to me that Bellows focusing is something you'd prefer.

(I have an RB and the bellows focus is something that really makes shooting that much more easy/fun for me)

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I do tend to be a close up shooter....

ChristopherCoy said:

Its not the size that's an issue. Its the focusing!!!!!

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When I get home tonight, I'll take a look at how my 553 ELX is set up and how the lever moves throughout the range. Maybe I'll be able to post a photo tomorrow.

What I like about the square format is the way that I have my choice of three formats in one, square, horizontal, and vertical, all in one shot. I can't do that with my 35mm nor my 4x5. Keep the Hasselblad.

The RZ can do the same thing only bigger.



PE

ChristopherCoy said:

Its not the size that's an issue. Its the focusing!!!!!

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Ok - I see what you're talking about. On my 553 ELX, when holding the camera normally and looking down at the lens, focused at infinity, the knob is up at the top and somewhat to the right. As I go from infinity to 5', I bring the knob down to the right with my right hand. At a focus distance of 5' the knob is now directly below the lens. Going from 5' to less than 3' results in an awkward crossing of the hand as the knob now comes up on the left side of the lens.

Movement is fast and smooth, however.

The awkwardness has never been a problem for me because I've never photographed anything closer than 5' with that particular Hassy and lens. Most of my "close-up" shots have been with the 50/4 CF FLE on a 500C/M - the focus rings are smooth on CF lenses and not like the somewhat uncomfortable C lens rings.

The only thing I can think of is to reposition the knob/ring so that it's less awkward for the focus distances you use.

I had the RZ67 for a while. I sold it because...is large. I mostly shoot street photography. When you pull the RZ67 out of your bag, you become the center of the attention. At least, I felt that way. The camera is smaller if you are shooting with the 110 f2.8 lens. Any other lenses like the 180 or 65mm, the kit will get even larger. Is heavy too and you need a grip to shoot comfortably. Again, adding a grip would make the kit even more larger. Focusing isn't the quickest. You still need to use the magnifying glass to nail the focus unless you are stopping down to F8 to F16. Now, you have to lift a 7lb camera close to your face in order to focus through the magnifying glass. I tried to use a microprism screen, the Mamiya brand. The "spot" was too small. The vewfinder is big and bright. The size, the ergonomic, and the need to nail the focus through magnifying glass forced me to sell the kit. I wasn't shooting it enough. The image quality is really, really nice though. I ended up getting a Yashica Mat now.

The ergonomics of the Hasselblad and the RZ67/RB67 are really different. I really prefer using my RB67 to the Hasselblads I have handled, but I am not you Christopher.

I would never recommend against the quality of the Hasselblad system. But some of the qualities of the RZ67/RB67 are to be recommended.

I use my RB67 hand held. But I use it more often on a tripod or a monopod - with the rotating back, it works really well.

Here is the size of the RZ67 with the 65mm F4 L. With this setup, the camera is now front heavy. The kit now weights about 10lb.

8O2T0015 by vracing, on Flickr
You can shoot with two hands. And carrying it around neck if you have a strong neck. I had to use a separate shoulder bag just to carry the camera.

I have owned both an RZ67 and a Hasselblad 500/cm. They are both fine cameras.

Like mentioned earlier, buy the RZ and use it a month or two and then decide which camera to sell.

As far as wanting to keep both, if you are married that will not be a problem!

I have a RB67 and it is a brute of a camera!

Jeff

I own a Hasselblad system and a Mamiya RB67SD (effectively like a RZ but no batteries). I'll start with the Hasselblad.

Hassy----
I have a Hasselblad 501CM. I have owned a Hasselblad system for 5 years now. Started with a 501CM, then replaced it with a 500ELX, then went back to a 501CM after having to repair the ELX 3 times for the same fault. Since we're talking repairs I also had to fix one A12 back for a broken frame counter (bought it like that so fair enough) and my current one probably needs to go sometime for service as I get the odd spacing issue. I have also owned at one time or another the 50CT, 50CF, 60CB, 80CB, 150CT, 150CF, 160CB and 250CT. I have the 80 now only and the 160 is on sale. Anyway...wonderful system. I use it exclusively with a PM90 prism. The tactile feeling is superb. The scans and prints I get back are just amazing. That Zeiss glass is really amazing.

HOwever...things I had to look for. For starters, unless you get a body with a Acute Matte D screen (latest type) you can't focus sh!t (well, I at least). Unless you want a split screen but I don't like these, I prefer a plain screen so I can see all around. So that's expensive if you can find one and is not included with your camera. But it is the brightest screen I've ever seen (and I have a Maxwell one so I'll come to that later). Also, servicing one of these is more expensive than most other systems.

So, overall, great system, great picture quality, the ergonomics are mostly ok though I hate that shutter button that gets tripped when it catches on my belt as I walk around (camera over shoulder) and I really find the 1/60 min shutter speed (handheld, no time for tripods) limiting. And it is expensive.

Mamiya RB----
I bought a like new (I actually think it was unboxed old stock, it was unmarked) RB67 SD last year. I now have a couple of backs, prism and have owned the following lenses, 65KL, 90KL (new), 127KL (also new!), 180KL and 250KL. These are all the latest optics and I believe are the same as the RZ optics. Ok, the camera is massive. I mean friggin huge. It makes the 501CM look like a toy, especially when I have the grip and prism on the Mamiya. However, a RB with WLF is not that much bigger in volume compared to a 500ELX.

Handling: it is heavy. I find it tricky to use without a grip. With the grip I can carry it around all day. The strap is crap though, it won't rotate and whichever of the four angles you set it to (once it is set that's it, you have to remove it to adjust it) it will be wrong, either for shooting or for carrying. So grip it is for me. Alternatively I will leave the grip home and put the camera in the bag, take it out, shoot, put it back in again. Also, without the grip focusing close makes it very front heavy and a bit unstable due to the bellows. The rotating back is just really cool. And I can shoot down to 1/15 and even 1/8. That's two stops over the Hasselblad.

Finder: When I first opened the finder I thought WOW! Hasselblad schmasselblad. That screen is like a TV. it is dark though so I eventually got myself a Bill Maxwell. Now Bill is a nice guy and that screen for the RB is very good but it is not $400 good. He tried to sell me a screen for my Hasselblad. Claimed it would be 10x brighter than my Acute Matte D just like the RB is. Well...the RB screen is not brighter. Period. It is almost as bright but not brighter. And reflects more light when looking down (probably because it is not brighter!). But the size of the screen makes it p1ss easy to focus. It is fantastic! I can reliably focus anywhere on the screen. So I would budget for a screen from Bill, I hear he makes a cheaper version (near half price) just as good nowadays...

Speed of operation: Probably as slow as the hassy. The focusing takes for ever as it is bellows. However I find the wind-on quicker (even the two step process the RB has, body+back, the RZ is single crank0. Push and done. The Hassy is twist twist twist done. I can even do the RB without taking my eye off the finder (when I have the grip of course).

Image quality: whoever says the RB/RZ optics (latest type, don't know about the older ones) are inferior to hasselblad they clearly haven't used one and are just brand snobs. The results are AMAZING. The clarity is there. The contrast. The bokeh at close-up is cream and butter. But it is a different look to the Hasselblad. The Mamiya has a more modern look, the Hasselblad is more traditional. One is not better than the other, they have a different look. Besides, one is square, the other is not!

Prices: the total cost for my **new** RB67SD, two backs, prism, 65KL, 90KL, 127KL, 180KL and 250KL is the price I paid for the 501CM+80+A12 kit. Enough said. I paid £80 for a like new 180KL. £60 for a mint back. In hasselblad-land £60 buys you a scratched lens filter. At least in the UK.

Which to have: I thought about selling the hasselblad. It collects mostly dust now that I have the RB67. I actually find the RB a nicer handling camera. It is heavy but it is actually smoother to focus (slower but lighter focusing) and the wind-on is simpler. The shutter release is soft and damped. The screen is massive. It costs nothing to buy more equipment. Servicing is cheaper. I can do close-ups without tubes or filters like you need in the hassy. I can shoot in lower light. I can shove it in a ThinkTank Retrospective and walk around for hours. My Hasselblad is a £1300-1400 (with all the accessories) collecting dust (haven't used it in 4 months). But after a lot of thought and as I was seriously tempted to sell the Hasselblad I decided to keep both, mainly on the advice of the missus (!). Different systems for different things!

It is like selling your children these things and while you know the Mamiya is the one that will do you proud every time the Hasselblad is the slightly spoilt, slightly annoying one you always forgive as it's so pretty...

You have a classic camera in excellent condition that you can make great images with and which will hold its value, even though accessories are expensive. There are a couple of niggles that probably could be fixed by changing the screen. Your risk in moving to a new camera system is much greater than the cost of upgrading the screen, so personally I think it's an easy decision. Keep the Hassy!

TooManyShots said:

When you pull the RZ67 out of your bag, you become the center of the attention.

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That's ok in my book, Part of the reason I choose a certain camera is based on how much attention I want the subject to pay to it, how seriously I want to be taken.

I have an RZ system, which I used to schlep about with me. I love it. I love the smell of it and I love what I get out of it.

Then I bought a Hasselblad an it felt like a tiny wee dinky-toy in my hand. I laughed and frolicked about town with this new, lightweight camera. It didn't smell but something very special happened to me; I discovered The Square. I struggle sometimes to get very sharp pictures with the Hasselblad but what I get framed far outweighs the bonus of sharp. Sometimes I get nice sharp pictures and I can never really figure out why.

I keep both and use the Hasselblad A LOT more. I have a Mamiya 7 for 6X7 and I use the RZ for portraits. It's been relegated to 'studio' work.

If God stood before me on judgement day and made me choose only one, I'd take the Hasselblad. I just love that square.

I found these this online this morning...

Looks about right that.
The size difference will hold and RB/RZ lenses rarely weigh less than a kilo.
The best advise -and its been repeated here already - is to use it and figure out what works for you.
btw, also check Polaroid backs out - if you like them, you might prefer one camera system's representation over the other.

Neither system looks tiny or unobtrusive by most measures. (unless you're used to wildlife teles -then both are 'small' and 'light')

(Btw - am I correct in understanding that the 500cm is all manual? )

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