Has anyone tried this yet? BelliniFoto Monopart C41 Kit

[AgX]

I'm not sure where you're coming from? the kit is quite clear, there are no water washes involved, and specific advice against doing it, so why would anyone ignore the manufacturers advice and use water? The only time you use water is for the pre-soak, that's it.

Some of us here come from the photochemical industry and the idea in washing any film is to get rid of as many substances that may effect longevity as possible.
Washless processes however do not so but instead try to keep the remaining, unwanted substances from harming the image.
In general washless processes are regarded as yielding less longevity. But I admit longevity research is a tricky field.

In film processing washless processes were devised to save time and water.

 

[Berri]

e used it and Nik&trick, who sell it, and their own processing services, swear by it. It's made by a small Italian company who've been around since 1988 so I personally have no doubts about it considering their business is pretty much all about developing chemicals. It's a great little C41 kit, I'm just about to get some more.

As I said, I asked directly at Bellini Foto SRL. They said you need to wash. If you use an automathic film processor it could be different, but bellini foto also produce specific products for minilab and automatic processors. I regularly use their RA4 and it's great

 

[TonyB65]

As I said, I asked directly at Bellini Foto SRL. They said you need to wash. If you use an automathic film processor it could be different, but bellini foto also produce specific products for minilab and automatic processors. I regularly use their RA4 and it's great

To be honest I'm going to have to take that with a pinch of salt considering it's not on their Data sheet

http://www.bellinifoto.it/files_prodotti/109/files/48_kit_c_41.pdf

Is this your kit? It says you can do 16 rolls of film and, regarding the wash:


"We suggest to prepare 1 or 2 liters of Stabilizer, it can also be at room temp, and to wash 3 or 4 times the film changing the bath".
Also, isn't 45 seconds of bleach very... fast?

The stab part of the process is the wash, you wash the film 3-4 times emptying the stab each time, 45 seconds is what they quote and it does work.

 

[TonyB65]

The reason to use a water wash is that it will likely result in longer lasting negatives.
But only if a post wash stabilizer is used as well.
The reason that processes are designed to avoid a water wash is that it allows for quicker throughput and lower costs - at the expense of longevity.

And you know the longevity is affected how? guesswork obviously.

 

[trendland]

As I understand it, many modern minilabs are designed for a "waterless" process, so these chemicals would be consistent with that.
One of the Kodak Z information sheets - Z-100 - states at the top of page I-3:
"Wash
Most minilabs operate without a wash step; however, some older minilabs use wash water to remove residual chemicals from film or paper."

AND as we all know - minilabs wasn't the real experts to develope films in the past.
Mostly is was a "gambling" strategy with them. Some reached a good quality - others were mixing there baths with no real experience.
I would be allways a bit careful just when I hear the simple word "MINILAB".
On the other hand Fujihunt minilab chems are not so bad.I can't say if there are Kodak minilab chems still avaible in all countries.
But a "quick process" like this here may have an impact to long life stability?
I can't say what PE's expertise would be,
but I have a little guess from....
Just looking to the sticky threat on stabilizers. To me there are little doubts if it is so smart without washing step. Well - it may be quick - but what about possible long life issues ?

with regards

PS : You can say the washing step is to be done via special chems in stabalizer bath - but even if it may work good - is it so bad to have a water bath?

 

[TonyB65]

AND as we all know - minilabs wasn't the real experts to develope films in the past.
Mostly is was a "gambling" strategy with them. Some reached a good quality - others were mixing there baths with no real experience.
I would be allways a bit careful just when I hear the simple word "MINILAB".
On the other hand Fujihunt minilab chems are not so bad.I can't say if there are Kodak minilab chems still avaible in all countries.
But a "quick process" like this here may have an impact to long life stability?
I can't say what PE's expertise would be,
but I have a little guess from....
Just looking to the sticky threat on stabilizers. To me there are little doubts if it is so smart without washing step. Well - it may be quick - but what about possible long life issues ?

with regards

PS : You can say the washing step is to be done via special chems in stabalizer bath - but even if it may work good - is it so bad to have a water bath?

According to the advice given a separate water wash is discouraged, because it is bad.

 

[trendland]

The reason to use a water wash is that it will likely result in longer lasting negatives.
But only if a post wash stabilizer is used as well.
The reason that processes are designed to avoid a water wash is that it allows for quicker throughput and lower costs - at the expense of longevity.

Oh sorry Matt - you mentioned it by yourself (that the disadvantage of quick reading ) ......so, hope I understand this correct, you have also little doubts
to best performance in long life issues?
The sadness in such cases is allways : If you will notice that it does not work so good in practice than stated in theory it will be much to late.
So we can't say today if it is a good idea - we have to wait some decades and then it is clear (to the time minilabs possible not exist any more)

with special greetings to you....

 

[trendland]

According to the advice given a separate water wash is discouraged, because it is bad.

It is bad to use a water bath ?
Well I could imagine why. ..... (Water is allways much expensive to minilabs)....

No seriously (pls. forgive me) I could imagine a water bath after stabilizer bath
(special in this case) isn't good because you wash the stabilizers away?
But I did not advice a water bath?
My advice to c41 would be a ranking of good - better - best methods.
And here is the ranking :
(worst methods first/best at last)

1) homebrew c41 with alternate compounds (...I have to state it is allways very suspensefull and a great experience but sometimes not with very best results
AND it is mostly cheap)
2) homebrew c41 from competent sources (formulations)
3) pls.notice the developing method without washing step!!!!!!
4) 3 bath kits of several manufacturer.
(always with "blix" step - I don't like
"blix" so much)
5) some kits from different manufacturers on basis of original Fujihunt chems (or lets say better : very simular to original Fujihunt chems) like
Rollei digibase a.s.o.
6) Fujihunt original minilab chems with different pre baths for example pre bleach a.s.o
7) Kodak 7 bath kit - it is E6 but - by the way - I just forget the name of Kodaks C41 original kit.
Most suppliers I know are listing just Fujihunt to support comercial labs since some years.

Any options against this ranking ?

with regards

 

[twelvetone12]

According to the advice given a separate water wash is discouraged, because it is bad.

But before or after stab? What harm can it do before stabilization? (I'm genuinely curious, I have this kit and will use it soon...)

 

[AgX]

No harm. And be aware "stabilizer" is a vague term, it can mean different things depending on process (eg. washless vs. standard-wash).

 

[pentaxuser]

Do Nik&trick know the answer why using water is bad? Maybe Bellini has had discussions with them as Nik&trick seem to be the pioneers of this stuff in the U.K. but it doesn't know the answer, then maybe another attempt with Bellini will settle the matter. Assuming there was no confusion for Bellini about what Berri was asking, he got an answer that states the very opposite of what Bellini says in its instructions

We may wish to "cut a small company(how small is it?) a bit of slack but contradicting itself can hardly be acceptable. surely?

pentaxuser

 

[trendland]

According to the advice given a separate water wash is discouraged, because it is bad.

It is bad to use a water bath ?
Well I could imagine why. ..... (Water is allways much expensive to minilabs)....

No seriously (pls. forgive me) I could imagine a water bath after stabilizer bath
(special in this case) isn't good because you wash the stabilizers away?
But I did not advice a water bath?
My advice to c41 would be a ranking of good - better - best methods.
And here is the ranking :
(worst methods first/best at last)

1) homebrew c41 with alternate compounds (...I have to state it is allways very suspensefull and a great experience but sometimes not with very best results
AND it is mostly cheap)
2) homebrew c41 from competent sources (formulations)
3) pls.notice the developing method without washing step!!!!!!
4) 3 bath kits of several manufacturer.
(always with "blix" step - I don't like
"blix" so much)
5) some kits from different manufacturers on basis of original Fujihunt chems (or lets say better : very simular to original Fujihunt chems) like
Rollei digibase a.s.o.
6) Fujihunt original minilab chems with different pre baths for example pre bleach a.s.o
7) Kodak 7 bath kit - it is E6 but - by the way - I just forget the name of Kodaks C41 original kit.
Most suppliers I know are listing just Fujihunt to support comercial labs since some years.

Any options against this ranking ?

with regards

But before or after stab? What harm can it do before stabilization? (I'm genuinely curious, I have this kit and will use it soon...)

twelvetone 12 - my attention wasn't to
make anybody curious. I also would't like to state : Don't use this stuff - because it is everyones own decision.
I would also not state : WARNING THIS STUFF ISN'T REAL GOOD TO YOUR C41 FILMS.
I just wonder about there is no need to a water bath.
So my advice to you is : use your kit like the official describtion.
Pls. notice : In c41 it isn't real possible to make so much wrong.
So it will work - I am sure.
The doubts stated here are allways in concern of LONG LIFE ISSUES.
After decades C41 lost its colors.
Here it might be a case of a lost of colors a bit earlier.But we can't say for sure.In
gerneral I would like to say : THE MORE BATHS THE BETTER THE MORE ACURACY IN REGARD OF TEMPERATURES AND PRECISLY WORKFLOW - THE BETTER.
But even if your C41workflow is a bit incorrect - you mostly did not notice from results in negatives.
So we can imagine what a lot may gone wrong with minilabs in the past from bad negatives from developing there.....?
I can't say if you should use a washing step before stabilizer step - because I don't know the chems they are using now (just to avoid water).
So try your developing just from manufacturers advice - perhaps we may know more about in the future.
If you may have more experience you have possible a focus on reformulation of your kit. Someone stated to add "salt" this may be just a joke.
If you are interisted then read PE's threat about stabilizers. Its very informative and it helps to understand the issues.

with regards

 

[twelvetone12]

I found a review of all Bellini's amateur kits (in italian). It does say there are no washes. I'm dropping an email to Bellini, I would prefer not to have my negatives auto-destruct in a couple years.

http://canonfdworld.blogspot.ch/p/prodotti-chimici-bellini-foto.html

 

[trendland]

Sorry for : "double posting" failure

last post was just adressed to twelftone12

with regards

 

[trendland]

No harm. And be aware "stabilizer" is a vague term, it can mean different things depending on process (eg. washless vs. standard-wash).

Ok - so if there are additional doubts on stabilizers from this kit - wy not "reformulate" in regard of the recipe PE gave with the use of formalin?
FROM MY oppinon it is not possible to have to much stabilizers in c41 .
But this will need a water bath - wich is the intention of the manufacturer to avoid.
By the way - is this new kit a powder kit?
This would speak positive for the manufacturer because of long life from storage this kit.
Then the rest would be a secondary concern : water or no water ? Who cares about - then let's try out ?

with regards

 

[TonyB65]

Ok - so if there are additional doubts on stabilizers from this kit - wy not "reformulate" in regard of the recipe PE gave with the use of formalin?
FROM MY oppinon it is not possible to have to much stabilizers in c41 .
But this will need a water bath - wich is the intention of the manufacturer to avoid.
By the way - is this new kit a powder kit?
This would speak positive for the manufacturer because of long life from storage this kit.
Then the rest would be a secondary concern : water or no water ? Who cares about - then let's try out ?

with regards

It's a liquid kit which specifies no wash after stab, because the wash and stab are combined, I'm not sure how many times I have to mention that this is what the instructions specify. The company in question is a company which makes developing chemistry, so I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing, they're not a new company either. Co-incidentally, from experience, when I follow a company's instructions it usually ends well, so I'm going with their advice.

 

[TonyB65]

But before or after stab? What harm can it do before stabilization? (I'm genuinely curious, I have this kit and will use it soon...)

Because the stab and wash are combined, this is how the kit is designed to work, washing it in water afterwards will presumably remove the benefit of this wash. Nik&Trick themselves are very specific about this, and they use Bellini chemicals for their commercial developing.

 

[trendland]

Billed by Nik & Trick (who I buy supplies from fairly often) as 'The best C41 kit available anywhere'.

The datasheet shows a very short overall process with no washing.

In a few months once my Digibase kit is exhausted, I might have a go with this and report back!

Ok Fin - meanwile I found the instruction.
It's no powder kit but it has a seperate fix and bleach.
The statement of the manufacturer that no wash step is a need - should be a marketing issue. Therfore the manufacturer named it as "mono kit".
Several other kits are "3 bath kits" with
"blix" to me here (with belini) is a case the manufacturer is frightened that people don't like it and say : " No blix - 4 baths - no way to me - much to complicate "
Now my advice (also for twelvetone12)
if you like then use a water step after developing - it will help the shell live of the bleach !
If you like use a smal water step after bleach - if you can afford so much water....because bleach and fix is seperated
It is indeed no need but it will not damage your fixage....
At last you may use a final washing after fixing then following the instruction with stabilizer bath (without washing)
That should be a good method.
But then you have following steps :
1) developer
2) stopp bath (just water)
3) bleach
4) stopp bleach (just water) ....(yes I know there is no stopp - but let us name it)
5)fixing
6) final washing
7) stabilizer

It you like no 7 bath process you may cancel step 2 and step 4.
There isn't an urgend need but to me it is clever.
But I would indeed advice step6 - and to me it is marketing the manufacturer don't advice washing.

with regards

 

[TonyB65]

Ok Fin - meanwile I found the instruction.
It's no powder kit but it has a seperate fix and bleach.
The statement of the manufacturer that no wash step is a need - should be a marketing issue. Therfore the manufacturer named it as "mono kit".
Several other kits are "3 bath kits" with
"blix" to me here (with belini) is a case the manufacturer is frightened that people don't like it and say : " No blix - 4 baths - no way to me - much to complicate "
Now my advice (also for twelvetone12)
if you like then use a water step after developing - it will help the shell live of the bleach !
If you like use a smal water step after bleach - if you can afford so much water....because bleach and fix is seperated
It is indeed no need but it will not damage your fixage....
At last you may use a final washing after fixing then following the instruction with stabilizer bath (without washing)
That should be a good method.
But then you have following steps :
1) developer
2) stopp bath (just water)
3) bleach
4) stopp bleach (just water) ....(yes I know there is no stopp - but let us name it)
5)fixing
6) final washing
7) stabilizer

It you like no 7 bath process you may cancel step 2 and step 4.
There isn't an urgend need but to me it is clever.
But I would indeed advice step6 - and to me it is marketing the manufacturer don't advice washing.

with regards

I have considered a quick stop wash between dev and bleach, bleach and fix, fix and stab, I take it you think this should be ok? I wouldn't wash after stab.

 

[trendland]

I have considered a quick stop wash between dev and bleach, bleach and fix, fix and stab, I take it you think this should be ok? I wouldn't wash after stab.

Yeah - it is indeed a bit tricky with the instruction the manufacturer gave.
Because of the faq. statement : No washing!
And sorry because I coudn't find the link
fin gave at the very beginning.
Yes you are right - use seperate water steps (if you like) there is no urgent need but your seperate bleach and fixing baths will love it ....
After fixing the manufacturer advice No. washing therefore imediate/direct stabilizer.
If you have noticed the stabilizer is 10ml.
in 990ml. water - the recomandation is to use several stabilizer baths (one after each other) with min. 2 liters and max.
4 liters stabilizer bath.
But why should we waste so much stabilizer ? Why should we not have a final wash before stabilizer bath ?..? ?....? We are not allowed to wash ?
BECAUSE THE MANUFACTURER CAN STATE THEN : No washing required !
So the case is solved ?

with regards

PS : As I stated : Just marketing
(to use 2 - 4 liters stabilizer with different/seperate stabilizer baths is a special method of final wash)
Better to use enough water (more than 4 liters to wash out enough rests of chems and then stabilizer - if you like give the final stabilizer bath more time to find a way into the film ....)

 

[MattKing]

And you know the longevity is affected how? guesswork obviously.

Not really.
The longevity issues arise because of the nature of C41 films and the C41 process. Unwanted ":stuff" gets left in the film unless it is removed.
The Bellini approach to wash and stabilize appears to be less complete than a full wash, and a separate full stabilization step thereafter.
It seems well suited to the remaining mini-lab market, because most of those machines are designed to be "washless", thus optimizing them for speed, lower energy use, and lower water use. They are not optimized for film longevity.

 

[TonyB65]

Not really.
The longevity issues arise because of the nature of C41 films and the C41 process. Unwanted ":stuff" gets left in the film unless it is removed.
The Bellini approach to wash and stabilize appears to be less complete than a full wash, and a separate full stabilization step thereafter.
It seems well suited to the remaining mini-lab market, because most of those machines are designed to be "washless", thus optimizing them for speed, lower energy use, and lower water use. They are not optimized for film longevity.

These kits are designed for limited production home use, so I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with machine use, as most people don't use machines these days for home use.

 

[trendland]

Not really.
The longevity issues arise because of the nature of C41 films and the C41 process. Unwanted ":stuff" gets left in the film unless it is removed.
The Bellini approach to wash and stabilize appears to be less complete than a full wash, and a separate full stabilization step thereafter.
It seems well suited to the remaining mini-lab market, because most of those machines are designed to be "washless", thus optimizing them for speed, lower energy use, and lower water use. They are not optimized for film longevity.

Matt - I know this method from minilabs today (saving water and energy don't care about late time concerns ) from my washing center next to me.
The machines there are using much to less water - it frightens me...
In this "panic" I sometimes add a full bottle 1,5 L table water I wanted to drink before into it - during the washer rumbles.
It's a kind of "dry-wash" with highest temperstures.....
Now plenty of my shirts are frayed!
Before they were dirty after washing now
(I washed them multible times)- I may throw them away.
But it is nice to save water.....

with regards

 

[MattKing]

For clarity...
Bellini aren't the only manufacturer to make chemicals for washless processes. Kodak is another source.
If you are going to use the kit with a washless workflow, I would recommend following the instructions as in.
But if you wish to investigate a workflow that will likely improve longevity, than I would suggest contacting the manufacturer, advising that you have access to Kodak Final Rinse and asking whether a full wash plus Final Rinse process is advisable.
Remember that when you post here on Photrio, you are going to hear from people who have experience with processes that are optimized for speed and profitability (i.e. commercial standards) as well as processes that are optimized for highest quality and near archival longevity. The "full wash plus seperate Final Rinse" people are more from the latter camp.

 

[RPC]

According to the advice given a separate water wash is discouraged, because it is bad.

Kodak invented the C-41 process, and their official process uses a water wash after the fixer followed by a stabilizer or final rinse which certainly isn't detrimental to the film or they wouldn't do it, don't you think? You can bet they have done longevity tests, and have stuck with this method over others. What testing has BelliniFoto done?