Has anyone tried this yet? BelliniFoto Monopart C41 Kit

[Fin]

Billed by Nik & Trick (who I buy supplies from fairly often) as 'The best C41 kit available anywhere'.

The datasheet shows a very short overall process with no washing.

In a few months once my Digibase kit is exhausted, I might have a go with this and report back!

 

[AgX]

It also says:
Wash every batch of film processed, with 1 or 2 litres of stabiliser, washing 3 or 4 time, changing the bath a couple of times for really clean films.
Processing should take you under 15 mins from pouring developer to hanging films to dry.


There you got your washing. It only is not stated in the sequence of steps.

 

[Arctic amateur]

Those washes are in multiple stabilizer baths. The instructions say there are no water baths at all. ("Commonly asked questions" on the last page.)

 

[AgX]

It would be interesting to know their idea behind this washing approach. Other then just selling a lot of stabilizer in contrast to the common approach.

 

[MattKing]

As I understand it, many modern minilabs are designed for a "waterless" process, so these chemicals would be consistent with that.
One of the Kodak Z information sheets - Z-100 - states at the top of page I-3:
"Wash
Most minilabs operate without a wash step; however, some older minilabs use wash water to remove residual chemicals from film or paper."

 

[bvy]

Those washes are in multiple stabilizer baths. The instructions say there are no water baths at all. ("Commonly asked questions" on the last page.)

They probably also say nothing about the archival qualities of the film.

 

[Berri]

I asked directly to them and they say you actually need to wash the film with water after fixing. It is a normal c41 process.

 

[AgX]

As I understand it, many modern minilabs are designed for a "waterless" process, so these chemicals would be consistent with that.
One of the Kodak Z information sheets - Z-100 - states at the top of page I-3:
"Wash
Most minilabs operate without a wash step; however, some older minilabs use wash water to remove residual chemicals from film or paper."

A washless process needs a different stabilizer than a process with wash.
That Bellini process is the standard one with wash.

 

[TonyB65]

Just to update this thread, I have used the Bellini Kit, it is very good and you do not wash the film separately, the stab is effectively the wash process and washing afterwards is in fact detrimental to the film.

 

[rgeorge911]

Anyone know if this kit is available in the US?

 

[pentaxuser]

I asked directly to them and they say you actually need to wash the film with water after fixing. It is a normal c41 process.

Well somebody has got it wrong. As has been said, the instructions and the Q&A at the end in their leaflet specifically exclude washing and even say what has been confirmed by TonyB65, namely that washing is detrimental. It would seem as others have said that it is based on the waterless automatic process and in the Bellini kit the amount of stabiliser used which is much greater, performs what in the "normal" process is wash then stabiliser.

Interesting that the bleach and fix stages are much reduced compared to other C41 processes. I have seen as much as 6 mins 30 secs recommended for bleach and fix respectively. I carefully copied the revised instructions for the Digibase process and adding it up it comes to 24 mins 45 secs which is a very long time for one film.

Will no water and shorter times for bleach and fix be detrimental to the longevity of the film? Well, we may not know until several years or even a decide or two have passed

pentaxuser

 

[TonyB65]

Well somebody has got it wrong. As has been said, the instructions and the Q&A at the end in their leaflet specifically exclude washing and even say what has been confirmed by TonyB65, namely that washing is detrimental. It would seem as others have said that it is based on the waterless automatic process and in the Bellini kit the amount of stabiliser used which is much greater, performs what in the "normal" process is wash then stabiliser.

Interesting that the bleach and fix stages are much reduced compared to other C41 processes. I have seen as much as 6 mins 30 secs recommended for bleach and fix respectively. I carefully copied the revised instructions for the Digibase process and adding it up it comes to 24 mins 45 secs which is a very long time for one film.

Will no water and shorter times for bleach and fix be detrimental to the longevity of the film? Well, we may not know until several years or even a decide or two have passed

pentaxuser

I've used it and Nik&trick, who sell it, and their own processing services, swear by it. It's made by a small Italian company who've been around since 1988 so I personally have no doubts about it considering their business is pretty much all about developing chemicals. It's a great little C41 kit, I'm just about to get some more.

 

[pentaxuser]

TonyB65, I have just looked at the kit. It works out at about £2 per roll but apparently some users get more rolls out of the kit. However Nik&trick do not give any detail how this is done. Do you know? Secondly in most kits the stabiliser, bleach and fix have a much longer life than the developer so can you buy replacement developer separately as you can with the Digibase kit?

How have you found the developer in terms of longevity i.e. if someone does one film only at a time, over a period how long will the developer stay fresh and what does it need to retain its freshness? Is it enough to simply close the bottle or is some kind of protection needed such as "Protectan" gas?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[AgX]

Well somebody has got it wrong. As has been said, the instructions and the Q&A at the end in their leaflet specifically exclude washing and even say what has been confirmed by TonyB65, namely that washing is detrimental. It would seem as others have said that it is based on the waterless automatic process and in the Bellini kit the amount of stabiliser used which is much greater, performs what in the "normal" process is wash then stabiliser.

I do not see why omittion of the washless stabilizer and instead using the standard washing procedure and a standard stabilizer at its end should be detrimental.
I expect the contrary.

 

[TonyB65]

TonyB65, I have just looked at the kit. It works out at about £2 per roll but apparently some users get more rolls out of the kit. However Nik&trick do not give any detail how this is done. Do you know? Secondly in most kits the stabiliser, bleach and fix have a much longer life than the developer so can you buy replacement developer separately as you can with the Digibase kit?

How have you found the developer in terms of longevity i.e. if someone does one film only at a time, over a period how long will the developer stay fresh and what does it need to retain its freshness? Is it enough to simply close the bottle or is some kind of protection needed such as "Protectan" gas?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Apparently people just keep using the kit as the manufacturers rather understate it's useful life, this is according to Nik and Trick themselves, who also use it and recommend it. I'm not sure if you can buy replacement developer but if you contacted Bellini (They have a website in English) I'm sure they could advise. I've used mine quickly, so I'm not sure about longevity, but I've started using wine saver vacuum pumps and corks in glass bottles so I will test this myself in the coming months, I've found they work very well with black and white chemistry so I've no reason not to think they won't work with colour as they're very effective. You pump the air out through a two-way valve in the rubber cork and it only takes seconds to remove the air and achieve an air-tight seal, the cork starts clicking when a vacuum has been achieved, very simple and effective, and also cheap and re-usable. I've just ordered my next Bellini kit so I will be testing longevity with this one.

 

[TonyB65]

I do not see why omittion of the washless stabilizer and instead using the standard washing procedure and a standard stabilizer at its end should be detrimental.
I expect the contrary.

I tend to believe the manufacturers advice is generally best, it's in their interest to give the most accurate advice for their product, it's always worked out best for me that way.

 

[MattKing]

A "washless" workflow has distinct advantages in a commercial environment - faster times and lower water and electricity use.
So the prescribed "washless" workflow may be an advantage for many customers. That doesn't mean that the materials are incompatible with other workflows.
The manufacturer should be consulted.

 

[TonyB65]

A "washless" workflow has distinct advantages in a commercial environment - faster times and lower water and electricity use.
So the prescribed "washless" workflow may be an advantage for many customers. That doesn't mean that the materials are incompatible with other workflows.
The manufacturer should be consulted.

It specifically states on the data sheet "this kit requires no water washes at all, in fact a water wash may have a detrimental effect"

 

[MattKing]

It specifically states on the data sheet "this kit requires no water washes at all, in fact a water wash may have a detrimental effect"

Understood, but the "may" in that sentence might be due to the fact that the kit doesn't include an after-the-wash stabilizer.
As I said, consider consulting the manufacturer if you would prefer to use a wash step.

 

[pentaxuser]

TonyB65, I think you are saying that that the kit is so devised that all the chemical are used up together i.e after you have developed X films all the chemicals have been used so the kit's instructions mean that after a set number of films the bleach and fix should be thrown away so in that sense the bleach and fix disappear down the drain because the kit's instructions tell you to throw out the bleach and fix. I fhtis is the case this is unusual in that in most kits the bleach and fix outlast the developer and are still fit for purpose, hence the benefit of being able to replace the developer only.

So do the kit's instructions ask that you throw away the bleach and fix after the developer has been used for the correct number of times?

pentaxuser

 

[AgX]

[

It specifically states on the data sheet "this kit requires no water washes at all, in fact a water wash may have a detrimental effect"

Bellini likely refer to a plain water wash without a respective final bath.
To some extend that might be detrimental. In the past some films needed a special final treatment to stop some selfdestructing reaction. And there still is the issue of microorganisms under certain circumstances.
But this does not exclude following a current, standard C-41 washing routine.

 

[TonyB65]

TonyB65, I think you are saying that that the kit is so devised that all the chemical are used up together i.e after you have developed X films all the chemicals have been used so the kit's instructions mean that after a set number of films the bleach and fix should be thrown away so in that sense the bleach and fix disappear down the drain because the kit's instructions tell you to throw out the bleach and fix. I fhtis is the case this is unusual in that in most kits the bleach and fix outlast the developer and are still fit for purpose, hence the benefit of being able to replace the developer only.

So do the kit's instructions ask that you throw away the bleach and fix after the developer has been used for the correct number of times?

pentaxuser

The kit just states that its good for 14 films, user feedback is that it's good for quite a few more, that's the whole kit, not just Blix and stab, that's as much as I know, I'll be testing it so see how far it goes in the coming months.

 

[TonyB65]

[



Bellini likely refer to a plain water wash without a respective final bath.
To some extend that might be detrimental. In the past some films needed a special final treatment to stop some selfdestructing reaction. And there still is the issue of microorganisms under certain circumstances.
But this does not exclude following a current, standard C-41 washing routine.

I'm not sure where you're coming from? the kit is quite clear, there are no water washes involved, and specific advice against doing it, so why would anyone ignore the manufacturers advice and use water? The only time you use water is for the pre-soak, that's it.

 

[MattKing]

The reason to use a water wash is that it will likely result in longer lasting negatives.
But only if a post wash stabilizer is used as well.
The reason that processes are designed to avoid a water wash is that it allows for quicker throughput and lower costs - at the expense of longevity.

 

[twelvetone12]

http://www.bellinifoto.it/files_prodotti/109/files/48_kit_c_41.pdf

Is this your kit? It says you can do 16 rolls of film and, regarding the wash:

Si consiglia di preparare 1 -2 litri di Stabilizzatore anche a temperatura ambiente e di lavare 3-4 volte la pellicola cambiando il Bagno.

"We suggest to prepare 1 or 2 liters of Stabilizer, it can also be at room temp, and to wash 3 or 4 times the film changing the bath".
Also, isn't 45 seconds of bleach very... fast?