Has anyone solved the Foma purple spots problem?

cptrios

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Over the last 18 months or so, I've shot probably 20 rolls of Foma/Arista EDU 100 (both brands) in 120. I use it to test out MF gear because it's cheap and...well, cheap. The problem is that since my first few rolls, every single one has been riddled with magenta spots. This seems like a fairly widespread issue, and the prevailing opinion (including from Foma itself) appears that it's a manufacturing problem rather than a processing one. Part of me still can't believe that, since one would think BH/etc would be flooded with negative reviews rather than just lightly peppered with them, but what can you do.

So far, I've tried developing in HC-110 and Clayon F76+, with all manner of pre-washes and agitations. I have not tried using distilled water, since that's a massive pain in the butt to get. Interestingly, since the last time I looked at this issue, this thread on another forum has been updated with Foma admitting to an issue with their anti-halation layer and suggesting that the spots might be clearable with an ethanol solution.

Has anyone tried that yet? I'm likely getting into 4x5 soon, and the price advantage of Foma there is even bigger than in 120 (Catlabs 80 is cheaper but I've had bad luck with that in 120). If the ethanol soak works, maybe it's worth it, but it'd be great if the issue could be solved without adding an extra bath.

Alternatively, has anyone bought any Foma recently that didn't have the problem?
 

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Just curious, how old is your latest dated Foma? I have a couple of rolls from earlier this year production awaiting processing (I'm a plain Rodinal 1:50 bloke) and will see how that works out.
 
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cptrios

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Hmm… can’t be sure of an exact date since I shot it ages ago, but the last one was an Arista-branded 100 roll bought from BH in July-ish. I do currently have a Foma 100 roll still in its box, probably bought at the same time. It’s from batch 021256 with an 03/2023 exp date. I’ll get around to shooting that at some point soonish!
 

Nicholas Lindan

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Ethanol? As in Vodka, as in Everclear/Spiritus (190 proof), as in denatured alcohol/paint solvent?

Isopropanol might be a better (er, cheaper) choice.

I just read the post above and see that some recommended an alkaline soak post fix - normally that is Hypo Clearing Agent (HCA), and it certainly gets the purple out of TMax films. Using old developer as HCA, as suggested in that UK thread, sounds like a horrid idea - if there are still remnants of fixer in the film the developer will cause permanent staining.

I use a mixture of PhotoFlo 600 and 10% isopropanol as a final wetting agent. I notice that the last of the TMax purple comes out in this step. I might be that 10% isopropanol might get the Foma spots out. I have tried high-proof (70%) isopropanol as a drying agent with limited success - it has attacked the emulsion on one occasion but worked reasonably well other times. Never any problems with 10%.

I mix up a stock wetting solution with 13ml of PhotoFlo 600 in 1l of isopropanol. This gets diluted down 1:7 for use - 1oz of the stock to make up 8oz / one SS tank's worth of wetting agent.
 
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albireo

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cptrios said:
Alternatively, has anyone bought any Foma recently that didn't have the problem?
Click to expand...

Yes I have. I haven't had the problem for ages now. The last 2-3 batches of Fomapan 100 120 I purchased don't have any issues whatsoever. So no need for prewash/ethanol etc. Just develop fix and wash as per Foma's leaflet.

What is the batch number of Fomapan 100 you're using?
 
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cptrios

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Unfortunately, I don't know, but I bought the last ones, which were Arista EDU, in late July/early August. When did you get yours?
 

Pioneer

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No issues with AEU/Foma 100 120 here. Most recent rolls expire in 12/2023.
No prewash. Develop in D-23 1+1 (usually continuous agitation), stop in Vinegar, fix with Formulary TF5, wash in tap water, Final rinse in Photoflo 200. Hang to dry in RV.
Most, if not all, of the colored antihalation layer is gone in the developing stage.
 

albireo

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cptrios said:
Unfortunately, I don't know, but I bought the last ones, which were Arista EDU, in late July/early August. When did you get yours?
Click to expand...

Sorry I'm confused now. Do you have a problem with Foma or with Arista? Arista doesn't track Foma's batch numbers AFAIK, which makes conflating the issues with the two brands somewhat unfair.

As stated, and based on personal experience with Foma, but not Arista, Foma's own fresh stocks of Foma 100 in 120 since 12-15 months have been perfect.
 
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cptrios

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Yeah, I guess I don't really know enough about the Arista-Foma situation to have conflated the two so completely. I suppose it stands to reason that the Arista films and Foma films being sold at any given time could be coming from pretty different batches.

That being said, I haven't seen any difference in either brand of film re: the spots. I've probably shot a ratio of 4-to-1 Arista to Foma, so my Arista sample size is a lot bigger. The Foma's still been bad, though, and that thread I linked to seems to bear that out.

As I said earlier, I have one roll from batch 021256 with an 03/2023 exp date (8 months older than Pioneer's last roll) that I can shoot at some point soon to check out.
 

abruzzi

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I've had no issues with Foma 100, 200 and 320, as well as the Arista 100. Mostly I've been shooting 4x5, 8x10 and 2.25x3.25, with the occasional 120 roll thrown in, and haven't had spots. The film has mostly been purchased in the last 2 years, but sporadically.
 

DonW

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My solution to all the FOMA problems is to never buy it again.
 

Doremus Scudder

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I had problems with dye retention with TMY (likely a sensitizing dye, not the AH layer). What worked for me was treating the film in an alkaline bath after fixing and rinsing. I used sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, sodium metaborate and my used PMK developer. All worked, albeit at different speeds. The carbonate is what I'd recommend. I just mixed a half-teaspoon in 500ml of water and it worked well. You might give it a try.

Best,

Doremus
 

FotoD

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+1
 

m00dawg

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Per the other post (https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/micro-purple-spots-on-b-w-negatives.9230/) I ran into while searching around for this problem, using a hypo clearing agent seems to resolve this. Sure enough, I put some of my Fomapan 200 4x5 sheets which had numerous purple dots into some Heico Perma Wash and boom, the purple dots seem to be gone!

I used 510-Pyro and TF-5 fixer (in a two bath) to develop my latest batch of 4x5 Foma 200 and was a bit worried I might affect the stain, but at least by eye it seems fine. It is mildly annoying I need to rewash my negatives, but I think I'll just have to add a hypo clear step in my process when using Fomapan 200.
 

Jonno85uk

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Can't say i've ever experienced purple spots in Foma 100/200/400 35mm+120. Although i experience the white + black spots in Foma 200 probably too often.
 

m00dawg

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It's happened to me a few times now - seemingly from a fairly recent box of actual Fomapan 200, rather than AristaEDU 200. My older EDU box didn't give me these issues? But that's also apples to oranges since I've only recently been developing Foma in 510-Pyro so perhaps there's some interaction going on there. Either way, using the hypoclear completely removed the purple spots. Negatives look beautiful now!
 
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cptrios

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Ok, I finally shot that roll (batch 021256 with an 03/2023 exp date, in the Foma Retro box), and...no spots! So it does seem to be a batch-to-batch thing. Hopefully it's also a permanently fixed thing! I'm going to pick up some Hypoclear and give it a shot on some of my old strips, because a few of them are worth salvaging.
 

shadowleaves

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Ok guys, I just bought some Foma 100/200 120 roll films after years of not using them and...the purple spots return. Fomapan 200 batch is "014256 6" with exp date "05 2027". Fomapan 100's batch no. is "023856 3" with exp date "06 2027". I have emailed Foma to ask for ways to get rid of them...as I have tried all sort of ways to no avail. Water re-washing, photo flo, HCA wash, etc...

Developed by Rodinal 1:50 btw. Not sure if Rodinal made it worse?

Image mode scan:


B/W mode scan:
 

Rudeofus

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I also had a problem with last year's batch of Fomapan 100 and followed other people's advice to refix and rewash. Initially I refixed with standard rapid fixer which had been used a few times. This cleared up some purple spots, but there were still plenty left in the film.

I then retried this with a fresh batch of powerful fixer. "Powerful fixer" means 200 ml/l Ammonium Thiosulfate 60% solution, 10 g/l Sodium Sulfite and 25 g/l Ammonium Thiocyanate. The powerful fixer completely took care of the issue, even with film that had been developed a year ago.
 

shadowleaves

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So I'd like to add a few more thoughts about this purple spots issue. now we all know that an ethanol/isopropyl wash would dissolve the purple spots in a few mins, even post-drying, and the solvent would turn pink afterwards. That confirms that the spots are non-water-soluble residuals of anti-halation layers, as opined by Foma themselves earlier. Now, I've seen people discussing whether to use pre-soak for Foma's 120 rolls, with some claiming that a (long) pre-soak process would help avoid these spots.

I did a pre-soak for a 120-format roll of Foma 400 today for 1+2+4mins, pouring out the dark green soup a few times, and then do the dev, fix, & wash steps. I can confirm the spots are still there! So it seems what really matters for the spots is the 70% ethanol/IPA wash, not the pre-soaking process.

What's even worse is that I got uneven developing (mottling) this time, something that never occurred to me in this batch of foma 400 and foma 100. The only thing I could think of, is the pre-soaking. So presumably, at the end of the day, pre-soaking didn't resolve the spot issue while introducing another one. So much for me - back to the never-presoaking camp. apparently YMMV...

Anyone also using foma 400's 120 format & have different experience?

FYI, I use Xtol 1+2 one-shot solution, 11min @23C, 60rpm rotary processing. Density seems fine.
 

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albireo

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This thread just made it up on top again and I noticed I had participated to it a while ago.

I would like to update my findings above in that I now have, finally, stumbled on a defective (dots) batch of Foma 100 in 120.

Batch number is 023856-4 (8/2027).



As I don't have time/interest in prewashes, ethanol baths etc. I've emailed jiri.chrtek [at] foma.cz and reported the issue. I've returned the entire lot of 20 rolls and have had it replaced with an equal number of Foma 400 rolls (sn 011956-2 10/27) which, as usual, do not show any issues in my workflow.

Let's please be vocal with Foma about this, in the hope they'll address this once and for all. I've been trying to replace their 120 film with Kentmere, which has much more consistent QC. Unfortunately, for my taste and based on my current understanding of both lines of products, Kentmere MF film is absolutely no replacement for the beautiful Foma 100 and Foma 200.
 
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shadowleaves

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that looks exactly what I saw with my foma 100 (exp 06 2027). But TBH I didn't even realize those spots were in my foma 100 negs until I saw them in the foma 200 negs first, likely because it was much easier to built up density in foma 100 vs. foma 200/400, regardless of developer used. The AHL residuals are of constant intensity, and thus less visible in slightly overexposed/over-developed negatives.

I like foma 100 too but really not sure if I want to use them in the 120 format anymore. Never a big fan of Isopropyl's smell and alcohol solution isn't readily available where I live. My foma 100/200/400 roll films were bought from 3 different distributors recently and that means the problem is really plaguing. Even if foma could replace it, It's just so screwy in a way I have never seen in any other brand. Not even the Lucky SHD100 stuff. Maybe time to move on..
 
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