Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

[pentaxuser]

I had an opportunity to forward a question to an Ilford Rep a few months ago about this very matter, asking if they will produce Kentmere as a sheet film product. The answer was: No, the Kentmere emulsion making is sufficiently different from the Ilford emulsions that it cannot be adapted to sheet film production. Apparently they tried, and it didn't work out. So I expect you can cross that off your list.

So Kentmere emulsion is OK for 35mm and 120 film but cannot be used for say 4x5? I wonder what it is about an emulsion that is OK at say 6 x 9 cm or even larger if the negatives are XPan size but then fails to work at 4x5 which isn't that much bigger?

pentaxuser

 

[MCB18]

So Kentmere emulsion is OK for 35mm and 120 film but cannot be used for say 4x5? I wonder what it is about an emulsion that is OK at say 6 x 9 cm or even larger if the negatives are XPan size but then fails to work at 4x5 which isn't that much bigger?

pentaxuser

The thicker base causes issues with coating.

Coating is a dark art. The slightest change or variations can ruin the run. This is probably one of the reasons that sheet films have far less emulsions than roll films.

I believe that the best (supposed) example of this is when Kodak moved coating to the current machine, several films, disputes using the exact same emulsion recipe, had problems. They needed to tweak the recipe until the film matched the original batch as best as possible.

 

[mshchem]

If this is a resurrection, what old products could be coming back?

 

[JParker]

If this is a resurrection, what old products could be coming back?

Harman Direct Positive Paper.
Harman Titan 8x10" pinhole camera.
And in addition maybe an ULF pinhole camera, extending the product range.

 

[4season]

"Rebirth" could also refer to something more general. Since partaking of the film revival several years ago, I've shot mostly C41 CN film, and some conventional b&w, but I have not made a single analog print.

 

[Xylo]

Please tell me you're joking...

So sad!

Just pulling your leg

The thing with these announcements is that we always get our hopes up really high and it always seems like the real announcement is so underwhelming.

I kinda use the Holga as a bit of a joke. When a company announces "disappointmentware" or vaporware, I always feel like the Holga is the perfect support for such shenanigans. Like the time there were rumours that Leica would venture out into medium format (which never happened) and some guy designed the Leica-H120 as a joke.

 

[koraks]

The thicker base causes issues with coating.

Coating is a dark art. The slightest change or variations can ruin the run. This is probably one of the reasons that sheet films have far less emulsions than roll films.

Coating and emulsion technology involve complex interactions, yes. Calling them a 'dark art' would be putting it a bit strongly, IMO.

I personally believe the reason why the Kentmere emulsions were never offered as sheet film is because Harman simply didn't believe the demand justified the effort of engineering those emulsions to be coated onto another base. I do not doubt in the slightest the technical feasibility of doing so, but it does likely require adjustments, and that in turn requires extensive testing, which is of course labor-intensive and therefore expensive. Given that they already coat sheet film for the Ilford sheet film products, it's likely that extending that offering with Kentmere sheet film would simply eat up part of the Ilford sheet film market share - they'd effectively be spreading out a substantially larger R&D effort across pretty much the same sales volume (but possibly a partly less profitable one, given the lower price point of the Kentmere films). This would be different if they would somehow manage to eat up e.g. Foma's market share, but given that they don't really succeed in this with the roll film products, I imagine Harman are realistic enough to understand that they wouldn't do so with the sheet film product either.

So in the end, I expect this to be associated with strategic marketing considerations more so than technical challenges. Sheet film is a relatively small niche within film photography and it doesn't always make sense to further drive up competition in such a segment.

 

[MCB18]

Coating and emulsion technology involve complex interactions, yes. Calling them a 'dark art' would be putting it a bit strongly, IMO.

I think missed the pun there…

 

[pentaxuser]

Am I wrong ín believing that Ilford/Harman has made no attempt to contact Photrio about its announcement? If it hasn't then despite the speculation that we may largely be in the wrong demographic you'd think it would consider Photrio to be worthwhile of inclusion in its announcement

What I can't recall is whether Ilford bothered to announce such new things as Kentmere in 120 or Ortho 80 Plus to Photrio


pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

I think missed the pun there…

Regardless. Your post implies that emulsion coating is an unpredictable process. I don't think that's accurate. At least not for a firm that's been doing it for a century or so.

Am I wrong ín believing that Ilford/Harman has made no attempt to contact Photrio about its announcement?

Why would they try and contact Photrio (i.e. Sean)? If they wanted to use Photrio to make an announcement, they can do so directly without intervention from anyone: https://www.photrio.com/forum/forums/partner-ilford-photo.19/
It seems that whoever does marketing & comms at Harman currently is focused on other socials than forums. That's probably a good bet, too, if they want to make some noise.

 

[perkeleellinen]

Maybe they're going to start a distillery.

On a similar theme; Harman Craft Ale is a product I could really get behind.

 

[retina_restoration]

I'm beginning to think that many people do not understand what the symbol of the Phoenix means.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Just pulling your leg

The thing with these announcements is that we always get our hopes up really high and it always seems like the real announcement is so underwhelming.

I kinda use the Holga as a bit of a joke. When a company announces "disappointmentware" or vaporware, I always feel like the Holga is the perfect support for such shenanigans. Like the time there were rumours that Leica would venture out into medium format (which never happened) and some guy designed the Leica-H120 as a joke.

Now I am walking around with one leg longer than the other! This is so embarrassing!

 

[Don_ih]

On a similar theme; Harman Craft Ale is a product I could really get behind.

You could get pale ale from phenidone and dark ale from metol.....

 

[Xylo]

You could get pale ale from phenidone and dark ale from metol.....

Or they<re going to branch out in the perfume industry.
Eau de Fixer comes to mind.

 

[Rudeofus]

I personally believe the reason why the Kentmere emulsions were never offered as sheet film is because Harman simply didn't believe the demand justified the effort of engineering those emulsions to be coated onto another base. I do not doubt in the slightest the technical feasibility of doing so, but it does likely require adjustments, and that in turn requires extensive testing, which is of course labor-intensive and therefore expensive. Given that they already coat sheet film for the Ilford sheet film products, it's likely that extending that offering with Kentmere sheet film would simply eat up part of the Ilford sheet film market share doesn't always make sense to further drive up competition in such a segment.

They may have simply decided not to coat "amateur" emulsions as sheet film. For a long time most "amateur" films were 35mm only, with 120 format only popping up on some rare occasions.

 

[pentaxuser]

koraks, what you said in your#283 seems make sense in the business case for not bothering with sheet film for Kentmere and I found it difficult to believe that Kentmere sheets were physically not possible and yet for Ilford to reply in the manner in which it did according to retina-restoration seems incredibly disingenuous So either the text of its reply was as retina-restoration says or he misunderstood what it said in the reply or it was carelessly couched in terms that seem to be too easily misunderstood

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

koraks, what you said in your#283 seems make sense in the business case for not bothering with sheet film for Kentmere and I found it difficult to believe that Kentmere sheets were physically not possible and yet for Ilford to reply in the manner in which it did according to retina-restoration seems incredibly disingenuous So either the text of its reply was as retina-restoration says or he misunderstood what it said in the reply or it was carelessly couched in terms that seem to be too easily misunderstood

pentaxuser

Different base materials require different components and techniques.
And certain components and techniques aren't compatible - or aren't economically compatible - with other components and techniques.
It might be something as simple as the Kentmere emulsions causing films to curl too much for practical use in sheet film holders.

 

[pentaxuser]

Are you kidding me??

Can you tell me what part of my quote is concerned with kidding you? Yes Ilford's reply as stated is puzzling to me and its pure physical impossiblity, as the Ilford reply implies gives an indication that appears to be the same to koraks but there are several possibilities for this. I accept that Ilford often gives a "condensed" reply as it may have done here but was there nothing in it that indicated that there may have been other reasons as to why it wasn't feasible?

Here is what you said that Ilford said:" I had an opportunity to forward a question to an Ilford Rep a few months ago about this very matter, asking if they will produce Kentmere as a sheet film product. The answer was: No, the Kentmere emulsion making is sufficiently different from the Ilford emulsions that it cannot be adapted to sheet film production. Apparently they tried, and it didn't work out. So I expect you can cross that off your list."

The part I have "bolded" just seems to indicate that Ilford tried to coat it onto sheet form and it didn't work

If it was written in that way then it looks as if the outcome was something which was unknown to them in advance This may have been the case but it just seems strange that it almost caught them by surprise when I would have thought that their knowledge of the composition of Kentmere and of what is required for sheet film production would have indicated in advance the likelihood of its unfeasibility or otherwise

My impression is that my inquiries and questions are annoying you, so if what you said was what Ilford said without it expanding in any way on its "didn't work out " statement then fine.

I need to be honest however and state that my curiosity about what is different about Kentmere in terms of what makes it unfeasible for sheet film may lead me to ask other questions on what is different

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Craig]

I wonder if the Paterson range of chemicals and/or paper are coming back?

 

[Agulliver]

I wonder if the Paterson range of chemicals and/or paper are coming back?

Wouldn't Paterson be responsible for that and promote it through their own channels?

 

[Don_ih]

Oh, the hype is dying down. Only three comments in the last 12 hours. See? This is why they need a quick reveal. Everyone will soon forget about it.

 

[warden]

Oh, the hype is dying down. Only three comments in the last 12 hours. See? This is why they need a quick reveal. Everyone will soon forget about it.

The hype is certainly dead on their Instagram account which has had no comments for three days since they posted that dark animation. They are getting much more attention here than anywhere else because this is a chatty group with industry knowledge that likes to speculate.

They’ve managed to attract all the Instagram followers they can with no news and a lack of marketing creativity, which is about 3,400 so far, and they’ve committed the social media sin of not following any of the people who have followed them. They’re not even following the influencers that they mailed the cards to which is frankly unbelievable.

It’s like they assigned a random employee to handle this reveal, but the employee doesn’t like social media or know how it works.

 

[Don_ih]

they’ve committed the social media sin of not following any of the people who have followed them. They’re not even following the influencers that they mailed the cards to which is frankly unbelievable.

That is unbelievable. Those first couple of days were gaining momentum, they probably could have picked up a lot more if they bothered to truly interact with the people they sent cards to. They also really needed something less vacuous to post after a few days - as in, they needed an actual product teaser. People can only get so excited about "nothing".

 

[Agulliver]

Usually the Ilford social media accounts are handled well from what I see on Facebook and Instagram. The Harman accounts look to be handled by someone else, who's not really doing it well. The initial buzz was there but they need to keep things moving, even if there's no actual info people following on social media expect *something* even if it's more cryptic images. And interacting with the followers, especially those in the industry who they've mailed material to ought to be automatic.

This still could be something big, but the excitement is draining a bit. I'm not that bothered because I am very patient but I'd not be satisfied with whoever is handling the Harman social media accounts if I were the boss. Unless the boss has dictated how it is to be done.