Harman Photo 17th June announcement. Any ideas what this might be?

So here we are, 17th June 2025, more than 18 months later and NO IMPROVED PRODUCT. 12 "short" months to make Phoenix ... 18 months later, nothing new.

Maybe a politician's statement after the Battle of El Alamein describe's the current development of Harman's Phoenix

"This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is perhaps the end of the beginning.

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

So here we are, 17th June 2025

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I'm pretty sure today is the 27th actually


I did take this picture on Phoenix in the 17th though:

So here we are on 7 July and Harman are teasing something new, with a blue colour scheme on the teaser image. That matches the colour scheme leaked by a retailer a couple of weeks ago.

Looks like Phoenix II is coming.

So, people are saying that this is clever marketing from Harman, but I think there are just too many non-Harman films in that bunch for this to be an intentional "slip up".



Anyway, what do you think this is? Can't see much point in putting a name like "Azure" on a BW film, but not much point in making a "creative" colour film either with Phoenix being "creative" enough as it is...

brbo said:

Anyway, what do you think this is? Can't see much point in putting a name like "Azure" on a BW film, but not much point in making a "creative" colour film either with Phoenix being "creative" enough as it is...

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The photo (thanks to someone posting it on Reddit) reveals the bottom of a 120 roll that says it's a C-41 film.

Most folks seem to be guessing a lomo turquoise style false color film

brbo said:

Anyway, what do you think this is? Can't see much point in putting a name like "Azure" on a BW film, but not much point in making a "creative" colour film either with Phoenix being "creative" enough as it is...

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Probably Harman Phoenix II, but with some of the color dyes swapped a la LomoChrome Purple and Turquoise.
The color would match the latter, and I guess the "switch" on the box might refer to the color dye switch.

The Harman PR lady did say that the next step in their colour film journey could appear late 2025 or early 2026. She didn't specifically say that would be Phoenix III....so perhaps this is what she alluded to?

If that Azure is genuine, it's colour film because they'd release B&W film as Ilford or Kentmere. The "switch" in the title does suggest they've switched colour couplers somewhere. So something akin to Lomography Turquoise might well be a good deduction.

Oh dear, we are being taken for another ride by Harman.

They need to take a leaf out of Lucky's book ... and just keep quiet until they can release a half-decent film. I don't think they ever will, there is a wide variety of "creative" films they can make and still recoup their costs. They will just string us along.

ChrisGalway said:

Oh dear, we are being taken for another ride by Harman.

They need to take a leaf out of Lucky's book ... and just keep quiet until they can release a half-decent film. I don't think they ever will, there is a wide variety of "creative" films they can make and still recoup their costs. They will just string us along.

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Sigh...here we go yet again.

Lucky owe their ability to manufacture a near mature C41 colour film to the fact that Kodak licensed their Kodacolor technology and expertise to them some years ago. WHile that deal expired, the main reason why Lucky can produce a pretty good attempt at a "standard" C41 film is because they've done it before and were taught how to by the best in the business....who also exchanged a lot of their colour film technology with Lucky.

Harman/Ilford have *never* made colour film. C41 colour film is one of the most technically advanced and difficult to produce products ever offered to the public. It took the giants (Kodak, Agfa, Fuji, Ferrania) decades to perfect it back in the days when they could throw millions and millions at it. And no other company ever has perfected it.

If you don't like what Harman are offering, don't buy it. But please let's get rid of this pie in the sky notion that they could lie low in the colour film market until they've got something akin to Color Plus or Lucky C200. That would be a recipe to sink Harman.

From a consumer perspective, Harman color products are a joke. We currently have two significant suppliers of colour film in the marketplace, Kodak and Fuji. They both make quality products. The only problem is the price. The only reason for a consumer to consider a new supplier, is if that supplier can offer a significantly lower price, at the same quality, or better. That's the power of competition.

There is absolutely no indication that Harman will be able to make a quality product any time soon, and certainly not at a competitive price. So, from the consumer perspective, the case is closed.

You could also look at this from an investor's perspective. If you buy some Phoenix, or Red, you've essentially decided to "invest" in Harman. Like any investment, it's akin to a lottery. You're hoping for potential future gains, with small initial outlay. It's stupid to be buying Phoenix or Red now, since there are absolutely no long term benefits to this type of investment. You'd be better off investing in shares of Harman, and hoping they can eventually come up with a competitive product, that will increase their share value. When you say "Haman should be given a break since they're starting from scratch in color film development", you're speaking from an investor's perspective. The free market doesn't care, and that's the consumer.

Sharktooth said:

When you say "Haman should be given a break since they're starting from scratch in color film development", you're speaking from an investor's perspective. The free market doesn't care, and that's the consumer.

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If that's true (that consumers don't care about different, but technically inferior films that are not considerably cheaper), then Harman, Lucky and Inoviscoat are really tanking in the market and they will soon be forced to stop with this colour film nonsense.

And you'll be happy again.

Fun!

Agulliver said:

If that Azure is genuine, it's colour film because they'd release B&W film as Ilford or Kentmere.

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Probably - unless they see a business reason for a C-41 B&W film.

ChrisGalway said:

Oh dear, we are being taken for another ride by Harman.

They need to take a leaf out of Lucky's book ... and just keep quiet until they can release a half-decent film. I don't think they ever will, there is a wide variety of "creative" films they can make and still recoup their costs. They will just string us along.

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Why would they "keep quiet" if they can sell this half baked stuff along the way. People seem to want to buy it so if I'm Pemberstone/Harman I might as well sell it.

Sharktooth said:

There is absolutely no indication that Harman will be able to make a quality product any time soon, and certainly not at a competitive price. So, from the consumer perspective, the case is closed.

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Let's be clear: this is your perspective, not some abstract representation of a consumer. Lots of folks have really enjoyed shooting with Phoenix and were sad to see it go. I'm among them; I bought ~60 rolls in 35mm and 120 after Phoenix II was announced because it's a weird fun film that I really enjoy shooting and would be sad to not have.

HARMAN, WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL THE WORLD!

(Dr. Strangelove, points out that such a doomsday machine would only have been an effective deterrent if everyone knew about it; de Sadeski replies that Kissov had planned to reveal its existence to the world the following week at the Party Congress.)

I am happy that Harman is making money. There's clearly a segment that likes this stuff. Doesn't look like digital.

MattKing said:

Probably - unless they see a business reason for a C-41 B&W film.

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??? Haven't they got a pretty good C41 B&W film in XP2 Super already?

pentaxuser

Agulliver said:

So here we are on 7 July and Harman are teasing something new, with a blue colour scheme on the teaser image. That matches the colour scheme leaked by a retailer a couple of weeks ago.

Looks like Phoenix II is coming.

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Seems it hasn't come yet some 7 months later but I suppose it depends on what you expect Phoenix II to be We are now speculating on it being a blue version as opposed to a red version shown on Reddit to be announced any day now

Maybe Harman has decided against using a fanfare of trumpets in the future until it has the next level of film that might fit an announcement of the next level of Phoenix ?


pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

??? Haven't they got a pretty good C41 B&W film in XP2 Super already?

pentaxuser

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Technically, they don't have a Harman film that does black and white.
I expect that the work with colour emulsions is designed to, among other things, get their films into retailers that hardly ever sell a roll of black and white film because most casual users of film don't use black and white film - at least in part because there aren't many labs who develop it for people. Harman are trying to establish a recognizable new brand name in that segment of the market - a brand name that they own and control, not merely one that they only have a license to use for limited purposes.
A Harman branded C41 black and white film would support that. An Ilford branded C41 black and white film tends to dilute that.
Sometimes its hard for us fans of black and white film to understand how weird black and white film seems to many, many people.

Milpool said:

Why would they "keep quiet" if they can sell this half baked stuff along the way. People seem to want to buy it so if I'm Pemberstone/Harman I might as well sell it.

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Selling it rather than scrapping it makes money that makes the next R&D step go faster. The speed drop also suggests that the masking/ contrast is much more under control, but that colour balancing will need layer undercuts etc.

Whatever it is, it probably went through finishing at the very end of 2025.

Sharktooth said:

From a consumer perspective, Harman color products are a joke. We currently have two significant suppliers of colour film in the marketplace, Kodak and Fuji. They both make quality products. The only problem is the price. The only reason for a consumer to consider a new supplier, is if that supplier can offer a significantly lower price, at the same quality, or better. That's the power of competition.

There is absolutely no indication that Harman will be able to make a quality product any time soon, and certainly not at a competitive price. So, from the consumer perspective, the case is closed.

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from a consumer's perspective, especially in a very limited market, if many players can make a decent product it's less possible that a slight hiccup can take away the market altogether.
we have 2 players, one of whom is not clear about its willing to continue making film.
if other manufacturers want to invest in producing film, just let them. Buy their film if you want, buy it only when they'll have a good product, whatever. They're not asking for money in advance, i can't see why the consumer should be upset about it.

tykos said:

from a consumer's perspective, especially in a very limited market, if many players can make a decent product it's less possible that a slight hiccup can take away the market altogether.
we have 2 players, one of whom is not clear about its willing to continue making film.
if other manufacturers want to invest in producing film, just let them. Buy their film if you want, buy it only when they'll have a good product, whatever. They're not asking for money in advance, i can't see why the consumer should be upset about it.

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Yup!

Currently FujiFilm aren't even manufacturing C41 film....the stuff with their name on it is manufactured rather closer to Rochester, NY.

For Harman, there are two possible avenues. Keep with the business model of the last 30 years or so....remain a traditional B&W film/paper/chemical company with a fantastic share in that market but no real possibility to grow or further stabilise their financial position because that market is *tiny*.

The other option is to try and grab a slice of the colour negative film market in addition to maintaining production of all their B&W product lines. Conducting R&D including coating test batches, testing, refining over the course of what might be 10 years....and not releasing any of that experimental film for sale would be financial suicide. Goodbye Harman, goodbye Ilford, goodbye Kentmere. The only viable way is to have the R&D at least partially pay for itself by selling the Phoenix and related films. As we have discussed here before, the costs of R&D to from virtually the starting point to the end point of something akin to Kodacolor would bankrupt Harman and take years even a decade or more. They have invested heavily in this, hiring more chemical engineers, upgrading their coating machinery....remember that £10m cash injection from Lloyds (which will have to be recouped at some point). And £10m on it's own isn't sufficient. They need the revenue from the experimental films too. Only five companies in the history of the world ever perfected C41 film, it took them all many millions in R&D from a starting point where they were already making colour film of some sort....in a market orders of magnitude bigger than today's.

"From a consumer perspective, Harman color products are a joke. "

No. From one consumer who isn't the target for these films, they are a joke. Millions of others are happy because they either want something specifically funky or like to experiment. Count me as being in the latter group, and I am happy to do my small bit to help R&D by buying a few rolls and submitting feedback on what worked for me, and what didn't.

The steps forward between Phoenix I and Phoenix II already point to Harman's desire and intention to ultimately produce "normal" C41 films for the general market. But at no point have they pretended that's what is for sale now. Phoenix II is a huge step forward from OG Phoenix - so much that fans of the original are upset! But it's still not yet an everyday film. However, it is far more flexible than Phoenix I and easier to scan.

As for Azure...we don't yet know what it is....so why some people are getting their knickers in a twist over what it may or may not be....rather weird to me. Will I buy any? I don't know. Depends what it turns out to be. If it really is a turquoise type film then probably not. But I might buy a roll as a gift for someone who *does* like that.

If you genuinely like the product that's one thing, but "...happy to do my small bit to help R&D..." That's pretty funny and/or scary.

MattKing said:

Technically, they don't have a Harman film that does black and white.
I expect that the work with colour emulsions is designed to, among other things, get their films into retailers that hardly ever sell a roll of black and white film because most casual users of film don't use black and white film - at least in part because there aren't many labs who develop it for people. Harman are trying to establish a recognizable new brand name in that segment of the market - a brand name that they own and control, not merely one that they only have a license to use for limited purposes.
A Harman branded C41 black and white film would support that. An Ilford branded C41 black and white film tends to dilute that.
Sometimes its hard for us fans of black and white film to understand how weird black and white film seems to many, many people.

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Thanks for the reply Matt. Yes I recognise the difference between Harman and what we including myself refer to as Ilford. The latter being the "catch-all" name still used by most on Phtorio on an interchangeable basis with Harman Technology

However my point stands about Ilford XP2 being the same as Harman XP2 or some completely new name if what you speculate about will take place

You seem to be saying that B&W C41 film may sell better if it is sold as Harman rather than Ilford. Presumably it will abandon Ilford XP2 and resurrect it as exactly the same film under the Harman name to sell more film to the "new" colour market consumer who otherwise has no knowledge of any Ilford film that fits into the C41 stable?

Thus the next Harman announcement that we are all waiting for will be launched as a new film when it is the same old film ?

Isn't that following the practice of all the other "new film" manufacturers who replace truth will an illusion by renaming some defunct film

Phantome 8 and Babylon 13 ( remember those?) RIP

pentaxuser