Hard Aperture Stops on Large Format Lenses

[Alan Edward Klein]

Are there any lenses or shutters that come with hard 1/3 or 1/2 stops that click in place has you move the aperture setting lever?

 

[Trail Images]

Alan, I have a 90-120-150-210-300 and none have click stops for apertures.

 

[FotoD]

The Seikosha size #0 shutter that came with the Polaroid 110/120 has 1/2 stop clicks.

 

[B.S.Kumar]

Yes, Prontor Professional shutters come with click stops at each 1/3 stop setting. Synchro-Compur shutters have 1/2 stop settings.

Kumar

 

[Donald Qualls]

I'd expect most large format shutters not to have any click stops in support of the ability to mount any lens with the correct thread (more or less standardized) and engrave an aperture scale for the specific focal length. Click stops would make sense only on a shutter (almost) exclusively used with a single lens.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I'd expect most large format shutters not to have any click stops in support of the ability to mount any lens with the correct thread (more or less standardized) and engrave an aperture scale for the specific focal length. Click stops would make sense only on a shutter (almost) exclusively used with a single lens.

Donald, I'm a little confused. Aren't all let's say Copal 0 aperture settings marked the same regardless which lens they're mounted on? Couldn't those hash marks have click stops?

 

[David Lindquist]

I have two relatively late production (top speed 1/500 instead of 1/400) No. 1 Compur shutters that have click stops at 1/3 stop steps. I have one No. 0 Compur, circa late 1968 - mid-1970 based on the serial number of the 90 mm Angolan mounted in it; it has click stops at 1/2 stop steps. (Another roughly contemporaneous No. 0 Compur I have doesn't have click stops.) None of my earlier No. 1 Compur shutters nor any of my Copal shutters have click stops.

David

 

[xkaes]

You've got to separate the shutter from the lens. Some barrel lenses have click stops. I've not seen shutters with click stops for lenses -- but they might exist.

 

[David Lindquist]

Also on her website Carol Flutot says some Copal shutters from Schneider had click stops: http://www.flutotscamerarepair.com/Services.htm#

None of my five Schneider lenses in Copal shutters have click stops.

David

 

[Donald Qualls]

Aren't all let's say Copal 0 aperture settings marked the same regardless which lens they're mounted on?

It's possible -- you'd have to insert mechanical end stops for maximum and minimum -- but they'd be different iris diameters for different lenses. If you have a 65 mm Super Angulon mounted, you'll have a different scale from a 135 mm Tessar.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Alan, why did you ask? Do you have application that requires such, um, precision? If so, consider using a TTL light meter such as the Horseman or Sinar.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

The Graflar 100mm f/4.5 that came with my Century Graphic is in a Prontor SVS and has half-stops. They're a bit subtle; I wouldn't trust myself counting down the clicks to get it to the aperture I wanted.
I also have a Rodenstock Ysarex 127mm f/4.7 in a Prontor SVS with an EV scale you can lock or unlock. It's from a Polaroid Pathfinder. This also has half-stops, but they're even more subtle; I can hear them click, but feel almost no resistance.
I have a Fujinon in a Seiko shutter; no click-stops at all on that.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Alan, why did you ask? Do you have application that requires such, um, precision? If so, consider using a TTL light meter such as the Horseman or Sinar.

Dan, I started LF during Covid. Mainly I had been shooting a Mamiya RB67 MF for decades and of course SLR 35mm as well. RB67 lenses have 1/2 stop aperture clicks. It's very convenient if you want to bracket a shot or change the aperture when you add a filter. You don't have to strain your eyes when you adjust the settings. It locks in. It seems that's why camera manufacturers have them in the first place.

Now with LR (I have four lenses), I really have to look clearly at the dials. Sometimes they're hard to see because the lens is high up. I;ve turned the lenses in their mounts if it's possible to do that so I can see the dials better from the side. That helps a little. If you want to adjust a setting if the light changes or you add a filter, you just can't do that by touch, feeling the full stops or 1/3 or 1/2 stop changes. You have to come around the front, line up the dial to see and adjust, much easier to make a mistake. It's inconvenient. The full stop shutter speeds help. But often you only want to change the stop partially, so you need to adjust the aperture.

 

[xkaes]

If a shutter and lens are fixed together, as with the RB lenses, sure you can have f-stop click stops, but with large format lenses and shutters, they are separate parts combined. A #0, #1, or #3 shutter never knows what lens it will be attached to. It can't know anything about f-stops.

 

[Donald Qualls]

It's inconvenient.

A lot of large format stuff is inconvenient; one could quite reasonably claim that most of the invention that's gone into smaller format cameras was for the convenience of the photography.

Don't forget, "if it were easy, anyone could do it."

 

[nmp]

Are there any lenses or shutters that come with hard 1/3 or 1/2 stops that click in place has you move the aperture setting lever?

I have a Schneider Kreuznach 150/5.6 that has 1/4 f-stop clicks. Shutter clicks a single stop.

:Niranjan.

 

[faberryman]

Don't forget, "if it were easy, anyone could do it."

Anyone can do 4x5 if they have the interest. The concepts and mechanics aren't difficult. Your results might not be that great, but that's not limited to 4x5. Think of it this way, at least your lousy results with 4x5 will have finer grain than 35mm or 120.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Dan, I started LF during Covid. Mainly I had been shooting a Mamiya RB67 MF for decades and of course SLR 35mm as well. RB67 lenses have 1/2 stop aperture clicks. It's very convenient if you want to bracket a shot or change the aperture when you add a filter. You don't have to strain your eyes when you adjust the settings. It locks in. It seems that's why camera manufacturers have them in the first place.

Now with LR (I have four lenses), I really have to look clearly at the dials. Sometimes they're hard to see because the lens is high up. I;ve turned the lenses in their mounts if it's possible to do that so I can see the dials better from the side. That helps a little. If you want to adjust a setting if the light changes or you add a filter, you just can't do that by touch, feeling the full stops or 1/3 or 1/2 stop changes. You have to come around the front, line up the dial to see and adjust, much easier to make a mistake. It's inconvenient. The full stop shutter speeds help. But often you only want to change the stop partially, so you need to adjust the aperture.

Thanks for the reply. Are you shooting reversal film? I ask because most negative film (is that the right word?) has enough latitude that +/- half a stop makes no difference.

 

[xkaes]

Anyone can do 4x5 if they have the interest.

And anyone can sue anyone else -- but never get a penny. Worthwhile point????

 

[abruzzi]

all of my later Compur shutters have clicks on the aperture--00, 0, 1, & 3. One of these days I'll take them apart remove the clicky thing.

Edit: here is a Compur #0 with click stops--in the photos you can see on the rear of the shutter the click stop mechanism:

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[BradS]

Donald, I'm a little confused. Aren't all let's say Copal 0 aperture settings marked the same regardless which lens they're mounted on? Couldn't those hash marks have click stops?

No. the f-stop number is defined as the focal length of the lens divided by the diameter of the aperture (well, technically, I think it is the diameter of the entrance pupil, but close enough) and, on a Copal #0, for example, the diameter of the aperture is directly proportional angular displacement of the aperture but the Copal #0 is used for many different focal lengths - everything form say, 75mm to 200mm. For any particular the position of the aperture selector, the f-number is gonna be different for different focal lengths. So, no. The scales are not the same.

Look closely at your LF lenses. Notice how those little metal plates that have the f-numbers engraved in them are easily interchangeable - that's because they're specific to focal length and many differnt focal length cells can be fitted to the same shutter. If you have two different focal length lenses, each mounted in a in a copal #0, the spacing of the f-numbers will be different between the two.

All that said, clicks stops are of course possible,they would just have to be custom done for each focal length. Which would cost extra.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Anyone can do 4x5 if they have the interest.

Surely, but between handling sheet film in the dark (vs. roll film), dealing with film holders, learning "the dance" as Matt Marrash calls it, and dealing with the larger, heavier, less automated cameras and so forth, 4x5 isn't even the kind of "easy" 120 in, say, a 1950s TLR is. There's a learning curve, and a fairly steep one, even for experienced manual photographers in smaller formats, and the more of the "real" 4x5 experience you go for (movements, for instance, ground glass focus and composition, or color) the less "easy" is left in this form of photography. And never forget the cost, which makes learning more stressful, but without the instant feedback of similarly or higher priced Polaroids.

 

[Donald Qualls]

those little metal plates that have the f-numbers engraved in them are easily interchangeable - that's because they're specific to focal length and many differnt focal length cells can be fitted to the same shutter.

Even more so, if you have a triple convertible lens, you might (if S.K. Grimes was involved) have an aperture plate with three separate scales, one for each focal length -- and f/13 for the 270 mm rear group won't necessarily be the same lever position as f/5.6 for the 150 mm full lens (or the same as f/18 for the 360 mm front group).

 

[BrianShaw]

Dan, I started LF during Covid. Mainly I had been shooting a Mamiya RB67 MF for decades and of course SLR 35mm as well. RB67 lenses have 1/2 stop aperture clicks. It's very convenient if you want to bracket a shot or change the aperture when you add a filter. You don't have to strain your eyes when you adjust the settings. It locks in. It seems that's why camera manufacturers have them in the first place.

Now with LR (I have four lenses), I really have to look clearly at the dials. Sometimes they're hard to see because the lens is high up. I;ve turned the lenses in their mounts if it's possible to do that so I can see the dials better from the side. That helps a little. If you want to adjust a setting if the light changes or you add a filter, you just can't do that by touch, feeling the full stops or 1/3 or 1/2 stop changes. You have to come around the front, line up the dial to see and adjust, much easier to make a mistake. It's inconvenient. The full stop shutter speeds help. But often you only want to change the stop partially, so you need to adjust the aperture.

Aside some minor conveniences like turning a shutter to be easier to read, as you mention, this is just a fact of life with LF.

 

[faberryman]

Surely, but between handling sheet film in the dark (vs. roll film), dealing with film holders, learning "the dance" as Matt Marrash calls it, and dealing with the larger, heavier, less automated cameras and so forth, 4x5 isn't even the kind of "easy" 120 in, say, a 1950s TLR is. There's a learning curve, and a fairly steep one, even for experienced manual photographers in smaller formats, and the more of the "real" 4x5 experience you go for (movements, for instance, ground glass focus and composition, or color) the less "easy" is left in this form of photography. And never forget the cost, which makes learning more stressful, but without the instant feedback of similarly or higher priced Polaroids.

So you are saying 4x5 is hard? I have not found that to be the case. The fact that it takes more effort than 35mm or 120 does not mean that it is hard. Less easy does not mean hard. It means easy, but less so. The hard part is making an exceptional image using any format. At least that has been the hard part of photography for me.