Gregg Toland - Citizen Kane - True or False , Wide angle on 18x24mm frame

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

I had been opened a thread on Gregg Toland and his wide angle shots with his Mitchell Camera. I was looking for a lens or diy camera for to capture similar frames as Citizen Kane.

Analysing the old posts , someone reported Toland used 50mm and 100 mm lenses on 18X24 Frame.

Diagonal of 18X24 frame is around 26mm and how was it possible to use 50mm and 100mm lens to capture Citizen Kane Frames on 18x24mm wide angle. Is it possible ?

I looked to 1939 Cooke Taylor Hobson catalog and there was even 15mm lens.

What is true or false ?

Umut

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Those wide shots couldn't have been done with long lenses. I would "guess" maybe 15-20mm... the diagonal of 18x24 is 30mm (if the entire area is used).

 

[MDR]

Citizen Kane was framed and released in the Academy Ratio (standard for Hollywood talkies since 1932) which is around 1.37:1 or about 22x16mm but shot in the full aperture ratio 1.33:1 or about 24x18mm, the relevant thing is the release format and not the shooting format as even today some movies are shot in the full aperture Ratio and are cropped or matted to the release formats like 1.85:1 or 2.39:1 (both widescreen formats). Neither the 50 nor the 100 mm lenses are considered wide angle lenses.

To quote the american cinematographer Magazine "With them came a Mitchell BNC which Toland had equipped with various accessories of his own design; eight f1.9-f2.5 Cooke and Astro lenses ranging from 24mm to six inches" So he did use true WA lenses for Citizen Kane.

50mm is considered the normal focal length for 35mm Movies, 1in or 25mm for 16mm movies, etc...

As far as I know the widest Cooke Speed Panchro Series II was the 18mm but I could be wrong, also there are still movies being shot with those old lenses.

Final word the WA lenses weren't used to achieve a wider look but the get deep focus something Gregg Toland was famous for. A longer lens wouldn't have given him the same effect and he would have had to stop the lenses down even more and the film stocks were rather slow.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Thank you for your answers Old n Freebie and MDR , now I am feeling better.

• If the full frame was 18x24mm , do cinematographers take two shot per frame to cover entire 24x36mm or were they wasting film ?
• What was the logic for smaller frame ?
• Is there any developer information for Citizen Kane or were they developing every scene roll differently ?
• If Gregg Toland used 24mm for 30mm diagonal of 24x18 frame , what is the lens equivalent in 35mm photography ?
• MDR , Was Toland using Cooke I or Cooke II series of lenses. In 1939 catalog , there was even a 15mm.
• By the way , If I buy 1939 Panchro 24mm lens , would it be able to cover only 24x24mm or bigger.
• If I change the distance of lens , does it help to cover 35mm frame but loosing the good thing ?
• Do cinematographers still use small frame in film shots ?
• Was Toland taking and developing film as negative or positive ?

 

[MDR]

•If the full frame was 18x24mm , do cinematographers take two shot per frame to cover entire 24x36mm or were they wasting film ?
Cine film travels (with exceptions like Vistavision) vertically as opposed to horizontaly like in still cameras no waste at all.
The release in the academy Frame 22x16mm was required because of the optical Soundtrack that requires a bit of space.

•What was the logic for smaller frame ?
It's the biggest possible frame if the film travels vertically almost sprocket (right) to sprocket (left).

•Is there any developer information for Citizen Kane or were they developing every scene roll differently ?
They most likely would have used Kodak D96, which has been the Standard MP B/W stock developer at the time and still is

•If Gregg Toland used 24mm for 30mm diagonal of 24x18 frame , what is the lens equivalent in 35mm photography ?

Gregg Toland framed for Academy 22x16mm and not the 24x18 frame, he would have had the markings on the viewfinder or even a hard mask that would have blocked anything outside the Academy frame. The answer to your question is about 35mm (24x18mm Silent Ratio) or around 38 to 40mm (22x16mm Academy Ratio).

•MDR , Was Toland using Cooke I or Cooke II series of lenses. In 1939 catalog , there was even a 15mm.
Cooke Speed Panchro series I the Series were only introduced much later (my mistake in my previous post), the 15mm was not a Speed panchro lens and most likely didn't cover the Academy or the Silent frame

•By the way , If I buy 1939 Panchro 24mm lens , would it be able to cover only 24x24mm or bigger.
Maybe a bit more than 24mm but not by a lot. Plenty of cameras with 24x24 Format like the Robots for example the original Mount (BNC) is very very big though

•If I change the distance of lens , does it help to cover 35mm frame but loosing the good thing ?
You would loose infinity Focus and the Quality would suffer a bit.

•Do cinematographers still use small frame in film shots ?
Yes, most widescreen formats use an even smaller frame than that.

•Was Toland taking and developing film as negative or positive ?
He shot B/W negative and the film was copied onto a printing/release stock again a negative to get a positive.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

MDR, You are awesome , thank you very much for your hard work. Thank you.

Lets talk about 24mm Speed Panchro Series II. If I think to buy it , which mounts does it come in ?

Umut

 

[MDR]

Series II would be a 25mm interestingly neither Cooke nor Astro offered lenses in the 24mm focal length at the time so I wonder were AC had the info from. Most of them were sold in BNC Mount, a lot of them were remounted in Arri Standard, Arri PL, Aaton, Eclair Camflex Mounts. They can even be found in Panavision Mount.
They are also far from cheap as many cinematographers still love to use them especially for Beauty product Commercials (think Leica Prices). The 25mm lenses do not cover the whole 24x36mm Frame, the longer focal length like 50mm and longer apparently do as someone on Ebay is selling them in Nikon F and Leica M Mount.
Astro Berlin lenses on the other hand can be found quiet cheaply meaning less than 500€ The lens from the Citizen Kane era would be the Gauss-Tachar 2/25

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

I looked to Cooke S2 25 mm is 2200 dollars and Astro 25mm Gauss Tachar is 500 dollars. At older days ,was there same price difference ? And Did Toland used Gauss Tachar 25mm.

By the way , I encountered zeiss, leica, cooke comparison videos .

https://vimeo.com/100501147

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

By the way , I want to use cooke or astro at their original 22x16 Format.

Some sell astro 25mm gauss tachar for 35mm camera , there might be film and lens distance differences between 22x16 and 24x36 ? Am I right ? or only thing I might do to crop the bigger frame in to smaller ?

Which is true ?

 

[MDR]

Astro made lenses for still cameras as well as MP cameras the Tachar lenses are Tessar Types, the Gauss Tachar a modified Gauss/planar. The lens distance depends on the Flange focal distance of the camera most cine mounts have longer FFD than still cameras due to the mirror Butterfly Shutter used in movie cameras. The difference between the Image size is caused by cropping so you only have to crop.

Toland probably used the Cooke wides and not the Astro wides. At the time 80% off all movies were shot with Cooke lenses Astro was a small, sometimes very innovative, player mostly catering to the German market.

Good luck

 

[cliveh]

I don't know if this helps, but Taylor Hobson lenses are superb.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

I don't know if this helps, but Taylor Hobson lenses are superb.

Cliveh,

I totally agree with you, I cant forget XV.

Umut

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

MDR,

For the sake of correctness, I looked to APUG archive and they report D96 is a reversal developer.
You say Toland developed negative and print to another negative as positive.

Tolands developer question remains open , I guess.

Thank you,

Umut

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Gregg Toland - Citizen Kane , Lens , Camera , Equipment List

24 MM Cooke ........... F 2 228223
25 MM Cooke
35 MM Astro ............. F 2-5 20040
40 MM Astro.... 18BO0 F 2-3 13 F1-8
50 MM Astro ............. F 2-3 18619
75 MM Astro ............. F 2-3 19548
4 Inch Astro ............. F 2-5 19427
5 Inch Astro
6 Inch Astro ..................... 7199

Find PDF for more information