Grain Alert! Delata 3200 in Rodinal

[Aurelien]

Delta and Tmax 3200 are grainy. If you develop it in rodinal which enhance grain, you will have as a result enormous grain. That's normal. Yuo have to develop it in Ilfotec DDX or in Xtol, it 's a pretty good film.

 

[fschifano]

I've done both TMZ and Delta 3200 in XTOL, and to my eye it is among the better developers for these films that I've tried. Try it 1+1 if you are so inclined. Easily very good, and quite economical compared to premade liquid concentrates.

 

[Larry Bullis]

I process ∆3200 in Beutler's which is very similar to Rodinal in the grain it produces. I do this because my wife shoots zone plate images on 120, and she likes the way the very sharply defined grain displays the extremely soft images. I've linked to her site before, but here it is again, if anyone is interested:

http://www.pbase.com/janealynn/janealynn

Be sure to click the thumbnails to enlarge the images. The grain is very visible.

I've never figured out why there seems to be an almost universal general assumption that grain = bad. I think it depends on what you are trying to do. I've used grain as a natural aquatint in converting photographic originals for intaglio printing on a press. It can work very well and be quite beautiful.

 

[Mark Antony]

Souping a 21st century 3200 ASA film in 19th century Rodinal... high five for grain! It seems almost incredible that a modern film survives such a drastic treatment, even Caffenol will be better for such films... well, Caffenol is better than Rodinal for almost all kinds of film.

That's fighting talk
Seriously I love the grain that Delta 3200 gives in Rodinal, especially in 120, as for caffenol being better than Rodinal for 'all kinds of film' is a very bold statement. Rodinal isn't 'drastic' treatment for modern films IMO it tells it like it is; draws defined grain that enhance edge sharpness, and can be used as a compensating developer and is way more flexible than Caffenol.
This shot is delta 3200 rated at EI 6400

Not bad for a 'drastic' 1890's technology dev.

 

[Aurum]

If you want serious grain by the barrowload, I'd suggest processing a cheapo C41 colour print film in a standard B&W developer.
Something like Ilfosol 3 @ 1+14 for 20 minutes at 20 Deg C, or D76 stock for 15 - 20 minutes at the same temperature.
It gives the same sort of grain effect that bowzart's wife is getting with her zoneplate pictures

The image attached below was taken on a disposible camera, filled with 400 ASA "German Film" it said on the canister (probably repacked Agfa) that was past its date.

I like the effect, and will probably experiment with it some more

 

[Larry Bullis]

If you want serious grain by the barrowload, I'd suggest processing a cheapo C41 colour print film in a standard B&W developer.
Something like Ilfosol 3 @ 1+14 for 20 minutes at 20 Deg C, or D76 stock for 15 - 20 minutes at the same temperature.
It gives the same sort of grain effect that bowzart's wife is getting with her zoneplate picture

I certainly agree that processing C41 film in bw chemicals gives grain, but it is not the same grain at all. My students do that all the time. It reveals that they didn't pay attention when we talked about time/temperature in class, because when I ask them what development time they used, it is usually the same one they use for whatever film they've been using. I have a "bogus film alert" paragraph in my syllabus and we spend a fair amount of time discussing the economic forces that produced the single-color color films, but they get suckered into buying it anyway.

Then they wonder why their film looks funny and why they have such trouble printing it. The colored base of the film adds a serious wildcard to variable contrast, and with graded papers, it acts like a safelight. With both graded and vc, it takes forever to expose, with all the various problems that brings, such as negatives popping when they heat up. With VC the whole range is shifted into a low contrast bias.

I don't much care for the grain you get doing this, either. It doesn't have the wonderful precision and even quality that the Δ3200 in Beutler's has. It has a pretty crude and (for me) really unpleasant look. I used to process 2475 Recording film in Rodinal, and it gave me really course grain, too, but not the nice, even cloud of it we get with the Δ3200 in Beutler's. What we're doing now has an elegance that is hard to describe; I wish I could show you a real print.

Of course, I haven't spent time researching this, because we've already got exactly what we want. It very well could be that selecting the developer carefully may yield a much improved result. But I'll leave it to you to discover.

 

[Aurum]

All fair points, but its something I'm playing with to see what results I get.
Certainly following the link you gave, I do like the effects. The "Nostalgia" Jpg is a personal favourite.

The effect I was looking for was that grainy surveillance effect, so beloved from spy films

As I've been getting a load of C41 Kodak Gold for a pound a roll, I figure I can afford to try a bit of playing time and pennies on chems.

If its a dead end, well I've learnt something and supported the film producing industry

 

[2F/2F]

"The effect I was looking for was that grainy surveillance effect, so beloved from spy films"

With a Wratten #25 filter in place, try exposing Delta 3200 at EI 12 to 50, or HP5 at EI 1.5 to 6 (filter factor of 8 is already applied to the EIs that I just stated). This means intentional overexposure of 3 to 5 stops. (The red filter is there just to simulate the look of a surveillance camera. If you don't use it, then rate your films three stops faster than what I just listed.) To kick it up another notch, use D-19 developer, or use excessive agitation and/or hot temps with a more normal developer.

The negs will likely need some bleaching back to print. After developing, stopping, and fixing, I rinse the film for just a bit, then I use multiple short baths of diluted Farmer's Reducer (about a quarter normal working strength) followed by some film fixer until the density looks good, then I rinse for 5 min., refix entirely, and hypo clear and wash as normal.

Another thing you can do is shoot loose, so you have to crop a lot. This will make the grain larger, but less sharp.

 

[Larry Bullis]

The effect I was looking for was that grainy surveillance effect, so beloved from spy films...

Got it. Very different from what we're doing but, nonetheless, a worthy study.

An old friend, teacher, and colleague of mine, an abstract expressionist painter who had done a great deal of photography (he told me that Brett Weston worked for him in the army where he ran a photo unit during WWII), got into doing a lot of what I guess I'd call "generational" process. That is, he would draw something with a ball point pen, preferably a really cheap one that left blobs of goo, then he would photograph it and enlarge it to a ridiculous size, then xerox the print, then draw on it and xerox it again, then photograph it... well, you get the picture. The accidental sloppy qualities of the ink on paper took on an entirely new and unexpected significance.

I remember the Antonioni film from the 60's Blow Up where the photographer takes a print and repeatedly copies it larger and larger, ultimately revealing the crime. As it grew in magnification, the quality degenerates as the information emerges. I've always been fascinated with that quality in photography that pertains to "evidence".

 

[smith]

Rodinal is designed to give great results with slow film, but when used with anything faster than ASA 100, you are asking for grain, grain, grain.
I concur with the recommendations re Xtol.
Good Luck,
Bill

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

...grain, grain, grain... AND sharpness.

Rodinal is designed to give great results with slow film, but when used with anything faster than ASA 100, you are asking for grain, grain, grain.
I concur with the recommendations re Xtol.
Good Luck,
Bill

 

[ChrisC]

Wow that looks surprisingly good. Arguably finer grain than I get with HP5 in Rodinal. Guess it shows I really need to take a closer look at what I'm doing when developing

 

[Simplicius]

I am just about to embark on my first ever rolls 120 of Delta 3200 ... from reading this it seems like a lot of fun is in store:

This settled it for me,

Jiri
Remember those are 120 film shot in a 6x6 camera. I have shot some at EI 3200 with a Fuji 6x7 RF and it's pretty good I feel:

My agitation for the Microphen is normally continuos first 30 sec then two per min thereafter.
When I rated it at EI25,000 I used 25 min and at EI12,800 18 min in stock solution.
Normally I meter for shadow detail then stop down 2 stops, but my spot meter only goes to 6400 so I need to stop down more.
Hope this helps.
I must stress again this is 120 film, if you shoot 35mm those EI ratings are gonna give you grain, when I use 35mm delta I normally rate 1000-1600 and my developer of choice is Microphen, although DDX would be better/just as good (but I don't use it due to cost)
Mark

But then again later also you mention Rodinal 1:25 for 12 minutes

What agitation? I generally when using it at 1:50 ( albeit on Fuji Acros 100 or neopan 400 ) only give it a gentle turn every minute.

And finally, Rodinal Special ( aka Studional) is a fine grain developer , has anyone tried Ilford 3200 in this? Simplicius

 

[gainer]

You will get less grain without loss of sharpness if you add 1 teaspoon of ascorbic acid and 1/2 teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) to a cup of water, let the effervescence subside, and then add 20 ml of Rodinal stock and water to make a liter of working solution. The developing times will be about the same as for Rodinal diluted 1+25.

 

[Bosaiya]

I've posted one of these before, but just to contrast the notion that Delta 3200 + Rodinal == Super Grain:

Both Delta 3200, 6x8cm, available light. Enlarged to 8x10.

Rodinal 1:25, 11min. (thirty seconds constant agitation at beginning, invert every thirty seconds, thirty seconds constant agitation at end)

 

[Anon Ymous]

I've posted one of these before, but just to contrast the notion that Delta 3200 + Rodinal == Super Grain:
...

C programmer?

(btw, nice portraits)

 

[Bosaiya]

C programmer?

(btw, nice portraits)

Recovered.

Thanks!

 

[Larry Bullis]

Here's a crop from an approximately 20 x 30 inch enlargement (if you are viewing it full size at 72 dpi) from a 35mm delta 3200 frame exposed at 800 ISO and developed in Edwal 12.

http://www.pbase.com/bullis/image/108391892

 

[Paul Howell]

Here's a crop from an approximately 20 x 30 inch enlargement (if you are viewing it full size at 72 dpi) from a 35mm delta 3200 frame exposed at 800 ISO and developed in Edwal 12.

http://www.pbase.com/bullis/image/108391892

What time did you use, I have tired Tmax 3200 at both 3200 and 1600 with E12 but did not much care for the tones, my times may be off. I pushed HP 5 to 800 in E12, very sharp and little grain.

 

[Larry Bullis]

I don't push unless I have good data on the film at actual speed, and then, if I decide to place low and expand, I wouldn't call it "pushing" so I guess you could say that I just plain don't push film. This was 12 minutes, 20 seconds initial inversion agitation with one lazy double inversion half way through.