Getting to the bottom of Cinestill E6 Dev kit

koraks · Jul 5, 2024

notoriousLT said:
Cinestill's response

Which, in all honesty, is a little iffy. They don't actually perform measurements of retained silver. There are visible differences especially in gamma but also saturation and color balance between their Cs 'daylight' chemistry and 6-bath lab processing, which may or may not be indicative of retained silver (but can also be caused by FD and CD differences).

Furthermore, what they say about replenishment being the rationale for 6-bath use in labs is contentious. If that were the case, how do they explain the widespread use of 2-bath processing at RA4 labs? They use blix alright, and the blix is replenished and reconditioned in larger labs infinitely, including silver recovery. There's no reason this couldn't work with an E6 blix. There must have been other reasons why the industry never transitioned to a simpler and shorter process flow.

notoriousLT · Jul 5, 2024

koraks said:
Which, in all honesty, is a little iffy. They don't actually perform measurements of retained silver. There are visible differences especially in gamma but also saturation and color balance between their Cs 'daylight' chemistry and 6-bath lab processing, which may or may not be indicative of retained silver (but can also be caused by FD and CD differences).

Right!! They completely glossed over obvious visual differences and offered no actual data to go off except a test roll lol. I wish they would be more transparent with their testing or at least admit they're too lazy to actual dedicate the time to properly test rather than making bold claims and focusing more on labs to distract us. Maybe I'll reach out and see what I can squeeze out of em' for more clarity rather than "trust me bro".

Samu · Jul 7, 2024

koraks said:
Which, in all honesty, is a little iffy. They don't actually perform measurements of retained silver. There are visible differences especially in gamma but also saturation and color balance between their Cs 'daylight' chemistry and 6-bath lab processing, which may or may not be indicative of retained silver (but can also be caused by FD and CD differences).

Furthermore, what they say about replenishment being the rationale for 6-bath use in labs is contentious. If that were the case, how do they explain the widespread use of 2-bath processing at RA4 labs? They use blix alright, and the blix is replenished and reconditioned in larger labs infinitely, including silver recovery. There's no reason this couldn't work with an E6 blix. There must have been other reasons why the industry never transitioned to a simpler and shorter process flow.

If I don´t remember it wrong, this argument of 2 bath C41 and 3 bath E6 not being used in labs because of the process not being suitable for replenishing is from marketing materials published by Tetenal in 1980´s. These kits are all based on Tetenal´s press kits from this age.

koraks · Jul 8, 2024

Samu said:
this argument of 2 bath C41 and 3 bath E6 not being used in labs because of the process not being suitable for replenishing is from marketing materials published by Tetenal in 1980´s

I doubt Tetenal ever had the clout to stop labs run by e.g. FujiFilm from adopting a replenished blix-based workflow. In fact, I'm quite sure they didn't. See the RA4 example, and note that Fuji has always had a processing chemistry branch (two, in fact). Tetenal may have chimed in somewhere, but no major lab would have ever based their workflow decisions on the performance of amateur-oriented chemistry from a 3rd party supplier.

Samu · Jul 8, 2024

koraks said:
I doubt Tetenal ever had the clout to stop labs run by e.g. FujiFilm from adopting a replenished blix-based workflow. In fact, I'm quite sure they didn't. See the RA4 example, and note that Fuji has always had a processing chemistry branch (two, in fact). Tetenal may have chimed in somewhere, but no major lab would have ever based their workflow decisions on the performance of amateur-oriented chemistry from a 3rd party supplier.

I agree. My point is that the companies making this chemistry are using 40 years old explanations about their chemistry being "better". There is nothing a lab could gain using off standard chemistry. All the systems would have needed to be reconstructed for nonstandard chemistry for no reason.

Tetenal made at least part of Kodak branded chemistry fot photofinishers for the European market for some years, so, it was not only a company oriented only for amateurs. They had also their own line of professional chemistry, which was just the standard stuff. Of course, Kodak had a policy requiring labs using their signage to use exclusively Kodak brand papers and chemistry bought from Kodak representatives. But Tetenal was a big manufacturer of Kodak chemistry in the days before digital. It was not only HC-110 they made. In the amateur and artist market, it was also rumored Tetenal made all of Ilford´s chemistry at some point. I can´t verify this. Losing the deal for supplying chemistry for Kodak labs would have been a very bad business decision for Tetenal for promoting their nonstandard chemistry. This product was mainly aimed to press photographers who needed to develop color negs and slide film in places like hotel rooms. 0.5L quantity in concentrates packed in pouches was convenient instead of carrying bottles for 7 baths (with stab).

I don't believe that the explanation that blix can't be replenished was true in the first place, but an explanation by the marketing department of Tetenal. I have a very strong déjà vu. that I read this quite recently in old marketing materials of Tetenal´s press kits from the early 1980´s I don't see any reason why not, as replenishing blic has been possible for a long time for RA-4 and even EP-2.

notoriousLT · Sep 30, 2024

Finally getting some more time again for shoots and experiments; Got my hands on some Provia a couple months ago, here are my results. The portraits have a Mole Richardson (2k, 3200k) on the right side with natural light coming through the window as fill (colors look a bit more accurate in person), the other two are natural sunlight. I developed these 4 with the Dynamic Chrome (D9), 1+2 dil for 10.5 mins, the other two cycles for 9 mins each. It seems to be well developed, let me know what yall think. (I should be able to shoot more provia and e100 then dev with Bellini to compare later)

Romanko · Oct 1, 2024

I never shot Provia, but that outdoor scene does not look like it was shot on slide film. The contrast and saturation are too low and there seems to be some color cast (cyan in highlights and magenta in shadows?). What format are you shooting? Assuming it is sheet film can you make two identical exposures and have one slide developed by a good lab to use as a reference?
Unrelated to the subject of the thread but how did you manage to have the tree on the right in focus and the one on the left out of focus? Swing?

notoriousLT · Oct 1, 2024

Romanko said:
I never shot Provia, but that outdoor scene does not look like it was shot on slide film. The contrast and saturation are too low and there seems to be some color cast (cyan in highlights and magenta in shadows?). What format are you shooting? Assuming it is sheet film can you make two identical exposures and have one slide developed by a good lab to use as a reference?

It looks better in person, but it is definitely overexposed (I remember it being a very bright day!). The magenta you see in the top right shadow is just a magenta bush, but the highlights are definitely blown out and possibly a color shift, the highlights on the tree look color accurate (at least in person), heres a raw from the camera thats a bit more accurate to what I see (still a bit off, there isnt as much as a cyan color cast on the whole image it looks more yellow in person, idk why my camera or darktable is processing it like that). But it does seem a bit off regardless and that just might be the claimed "wanted effect" from cinestill D9 at 1 to 2 dil which claims to give it an extended highlight latitude, which also may affect provia differently especially direct sunlight vs tungsten/mixed lighting. The third picture of the keycaps, seems to be color accurate, but is diffused sunlight through a window rather than direct. This is 4x5 and I definitely will be doing some identical exposure tests! I'll most likely send one to The Darkroom to see what they come out with and will also be comparing these to a bellini kit down the road.

notoriousLT · Oct 1, 2024

Romanko said:
Unrelated to the subject of the thread but how did you manage to have the tree on the right in focus and the one on the left out of focus? Swing?

Yep! I'm using a front swing and a asymmetrical rear swing on an Ebony SV45U2 creating a sort of thin wall of focus on the right, from the lens to the house

koraks · Oct 1, 2024

There's something very odd (not in a good way) with the color balance. Your portraits are entirely magenta/red, much more magenta than you'd expect with 3200K light on a daylight film. The outdoor scene looks very very flat and with a very strong cyan cast. The product shot looks desaturated. I'd say there are some major processing problems going on here.
I'd suggest getting some proper E6 chemistry; ADOX just launched their E6 kit. Might be worth a try.

Did Fuji really change the edge printing from yellow to red?

First time I'm seeing this but I haven't shot any E6 in a looong time.

notoriousLT · Oct 1, 2024

koraks said:
There's something very odd (not in a good way) with the color balance. Your portraits are entirely magenta/red, much more magenta than you'd expect with 3200K light on a daylight film. The outdoor scene looks very very flat and with a very strong cyan cast. The product shot looks desaturated. I'd say there are some major processing problems going on here.
I'd suggest getting some proper E6 chemistry; ADOX just launched their E6 kit. Might be worth a try.

Did Fuji really change the edge printing from yellow to red?
View attachment 379823
First time I'm seeing this but I haven't shot any E6 in a looong time.

Glad you pointed that out! the edge is more orange in person and noticed darktable was trying to auto adjust temp, so I fixed it to be 5600k(sunray iii box). I changed the portraits and you can see what it actually looks like more accurately(still has that magenta/red), the fuji logo is a darker orange going towards red rather than yellow, so I wonder what the D9 is doing (what extended highlights actually means). This is the 1 to 2 dilution so I'm curious to see what 1 to 1 gets me.

koraks · Oct 1, 2024

notoriousLT said:
the fuji logo is a darker orange going towards red rather than yellow

Very odd, but like I said, maybe they changed the color of the edge print? It used to be yellow with a small hint of magenta, so as to make a 'warm' kind of yellow that went into the direction of orange, while still remaining convincingly yellow. If they haven't changed it and the edge print does come out like the red/brown as shown in your photos, something is going very very wrong with the processing.

notoriousLT said:
what extended highlights actually means

I suppose it refers to compression of the curve. This is what's seen especially in the outdoor shot.

notoriousLT said:
This is the 1 to 2 dilution so I'm curious to see what 1 to 1 gets me.

As evidenced by the Cinestill examples, at least some sort of severe color shift.

To each their own and all that, but in all honesty, I don't think this Cinestill approach to E6 is very successful. Provia is an excellent, beautiful film when processed normally. I'd really recommend giving it a try with proper E6 chemistry so you know what can be gotten from the film. You could then always go back to the experimental approach to twist and turn the curves in a non-standard way.

Romanko · Oct 1, 2024

koraks said:
I don't think this Cinestill approach to E6 is very successful.

Judging by examples in this thread I agree with @koraks .

The situation with E6 kits has improved and even here in Australia we have Bellini, Ilfocolor and Cinestill (with D9, which is the most expensive option). If I were to shoot a lot of slide film I would choose between Bellini and Ilfocolor. And I won't be saving much by processing it myself compared to sending to the lab.

lamerko · Oct 1, 2024

It's hard to tell where the crossover is coming from - maybe from ambient light?

Romanko · Oct 2, 2024

lamerko said:
It's hard to tell where the crossover is coming from

That looks much better. So you used custom curves to tweak the gamma of each channel. I checked the characteristic curves of Provia 100F and the three channels are nearly identical up to the density of 2.5D. To me this looks like a problem with processing. From what I read the first developer is the most critical part of the process so I would start troubleshooting there.

lamerko · Oct 2, 2024

I did not play with the curves - I just defined a dark and light point, there is no minute. A quick way to see the linearity of color channels...

notoriousLT · Oct 2, 2024

lamerko said:
I did not play with the curves - I just defined a dark and light point, there is no minute. A quick way to see the linearity of color channels...

wow ya that looks exactly to what I see in person! Thanks for fixing it, I'll have to remember setting dark/light points when needed.

notoriousLT · Oct 12, 2024

Did some D9 (DynamicChrome) 1+1, 9 mins for every cycle. The last two are Velvia 4x5, also should note the last slides I posted were Velvia as well sorry for the mistake. The rest are E100 120 (6x9)

koraks · Oct 13, 2024

They look nice!
With regard to the last few images: it's a little odd to see an Ektachrome slide that's more saturated than a Velvia slide of the same scene. But in the case of the Velvia shot, there seems to be a large amount of lens flare, which degrades contrast (and saturation), so it does make sense - it just made me look twice!

Anyway, not bad at all, especially the Ektachrome. On the Velvia slides there's a lot happening and I can't tell whether it's related to film/processing or shooting conditions.

notoriousLT · Oct 13, 2024

koraks said:
They look nice!
With regard to the last few images: it's a little odd to see an Ektachrome slide that's more saturated than a Velvia slide of the same scene. But in the case of the Velvia shot, there seems to be a large amount of lens flare, which degrades contrast (and saturation), so it does make sense - it just made me look twice!

Anyway, not bad at all, especially the Ektachrome. On the Velvia slides there's a lot happening and I can't tell whether it's related to film/processing or shooting conditions.

Yeah it seems the 1+1 for D9 is the much better choice for the ratio. For the Velvia it definitely had more going on shooting wise (obviously that light leak), those were the first couple shots of the session so the sun was close to be at its highest vs. the e100 equivalent which actually were the last shots I took so the sun was starting to go down, and the lens directed at the window ofc.

notoriousLT · Oct 13, 2024

I still have the daylight chrome to try and compare and then just a consistent shot to compare them all vs bellini e6 kit and lab

WeiW · Oct 13, 2024

the processing looks nice for the indoor portraits

notoriousLT · Oct 13, 2024

WeiW said:
the processing looks nice for the indoor portraits

Yeah, I'm glad it handled the mix lighting pretty well

Getting to the bottom of Cinestill E6 Dev kit

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