Getting Fiber Based Paper Flat

[ruilourosa]

make up a solution, try 5%, it will soften paper fibers and allow for a straighter drying, if you

if you are ashamed of buying glycerine anywhere, try with KY jelly

 

[stevewaschka]

commercial fb papers

i work with ilford fb most of the time. primarily mgiv. ive seen a million posts on this. firstly, the bit about trimming the edges is true. the small waves along the length of the page seem to occur because of tension at the edge of the page. i dont know how they make their final products so i can assume a dozen reasons why this works but it just does. You only need trim less than 1/8 of an inch for it to be effective. you do so after you have processed the paper and have dried it to the point it no longer has a wet surface. but the paper is still saturated. i just lay it on a large cutting board (image up), use a straight edge and a very very sharp knife. There is technique to trimming wet photos. for example very light sawing at the start of the cut to ensure you are thru the paper before continuing or you will wrinkle the corner of your print, etc, etc, etc. I have never tried trimming an unexposed sheet. I hate trimming paper under a safe light.

second, you can iron prints. what ever method for iron or heat drying you use, dont have anything in contact with the print that can transfer any residues or has any texture you dont want. the paper will pick up anything you touch to it, and will take on textures of fabrics and such you use to isolate the print from the iron. but ironing is a process to use if you are in a hurry, as is drier drums, heated blocks, etc. prints will stay flat because when they cooled and/or dried they were in a straight position. if you use anything with heat you should cool them with time and pressure method.

Time is the best thing for fb print paper. air dry them until they are starting to curl and put them under flat weight. isolate them as mentioned. do not use things that absorb moisture. do not start this process if the print has not started to curl or you have rewetted portions of the paper. paper curls because it doesn't dry uniformly. the emulsion dries at one speed, the paper does another, and portions of the paper dry differently than other portions, also any hardeners such as hardening fixers can exaggerate the problem.

i dont print more than a few 16x20's at a time. so i usually iron them and then put them under long term pressure. i live in florida. take a perfectly flat fb print and put it in the car and you get to start over again. So humidity is a factor. not just wet. remember that when you choose your isolation materials. if they hold moisture, they are maintaning a humidity level in your print. take it out in the ac and presto rollo.

 

[tlitody]

some common sense about fibre prints:

The paper side dries a lot slower than the emulsion side in air. The emulsion side dries a lot faster than the paper side. So when a print dries the emulsion shrinks and curls the paper. The paper side then dries but with all the fibres shifted so that it has a permanent curl.
Then what happens is you stick it in a press. But because all the paper fibres are still dry and springy, all you do is put a temporary flatness in it which will eventually move back to its curled state as that is where the fibres dried.

So the solution is, as bob carnie has already told you, to damp the print paper before putting it in the press. That way the fibres can move instead of just being sprung into a new position.

And from all of that you should also be able glean that drying fibre prints very slowly will cause less curl and drying them face down on screens will limit airflow over the emulsion side so that the paper side dries relatively quicker causing less curl. But best of all, drying them very slowly in blotters with a weight on them will dry them perfectly flat with no tension in the paper fibres at all. That way they will stay flat even if not dry mounted.

common sense really if you actually think about it.

If you are the impatient type then you are stuffed.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

My observation

I noticed that my FB prints are flatter the slower it dries. On humid days when my prints take a whole day to dry, they're kinda flat. But on those hot dry summer days when they dry in just a few hours, they are curly as a pigs tail. Don't know why.

 

[An Le-qun]

Apologies if this is mentioned elsewhere in the thread--it's huge (I've been reading through it for a couple days and I'm not even halfway through).

When I squeegee prints prior to hang-drying, they curl up like crazy. When I don't squeegee, they don't exactly dry flat, but pretty close. I'm thinking that my squeegee technique is lacking--perhaps I'm forcing water out of the center of the print, leaving more around the outside edge (or vice versa); thus uneven drying might result in curling. Also, when hang-drying, the bottom drys more slowly, thus stays slightly heavier throughout the drying.

This is just theory, but based on observation. Thoughts, anyone?

 

[clayne]

I've never had prints, which have been pressed in a dry mount, return to the curl they had prior to the press. Theory may be one thing, but practice shows that once you press prints and place them in storage they do not significantly curl again.

I do zero squeegeeing. I simply pull the prints from the washer, give them a final rinse them off in running water, and hang a bottom corner with plastic clothespins. After they dry and exhibit typical corner curling, they go in the 210M for 1-2 mins at ~200F where upon removal they'll have a gradual slope from corner to corner. Place in a clamshell and within 1 day they're pragmatically flat.

I don't use any kind of corrugated board, screens, etc. One just needs a press.

 

[A49]

Alternative method to get FB paper dry and flat without dry mount press

This method I learned about 20 years ago from my photography teacher J.Janus...If you dont need the high gloss, then a way of getting FB paper photos dry and absolutely flat without a press is sticking them on a glass pane: You put the still wet sheet of FB paper on the glass pane, so that you can see the picture. Then you carefully clean the surface from water drops, a little bit but not too much with a soft sponge.

All the the edges of your photo you fasten with a special adhesive tape on the pane. The tape is made of paper and is for instance used to fasten water colour papers on a board. Therefore this tape should be available in shops for artistry equipment. This tape is not self-adhesive. You have to wetting it a bit with water (use the sponge again) on the adhesive side. The tape should stick with it´s one half on the photo´s edges and with the other half on the glass pane. It has to overlap in the corners of the photo so that the photo is completely surrounded by the tape.

If this is done you have to wait a few hours until the photo is totally dry. Then you can carefully cut it along the edges from the glass pane with a cutter. When using this drying method you have to make the picture a litltle bit smaller than the FB paper. It is because a part of the adhesive tape stays unremovable sticking on the border of your photo paper and you have to cut it away in the final step.

I used this method many times primary for large formats about 16 x 20 inch and larger (for the smaller sizes drying with a mounting press is easier and faster) and it works very well. In the drying process the paper shrinks and therefore becomes flat out of itself. With the single weight papers it can happen that they burst during the drying, so check it before starting with this method and a lot of photos of the thin paper type. The double weight or thicker FB paper never made any problems.

Anyone who understood? Further questions?

Andreas

 

[Chriscc123]

if it already hasn't been answered, all my fiber curls while im trying to print... bit hard to get focused edges, its a bit old, most likely expired in early 2000, but still prints fine

 

[hansformat]

My method for flat fiber is:
- let prints dry 24 hours
- put two prints back to back in archival sleeves
- then put all the sleeves in between two heavy books (make sure no crap on the book surfaces)
- put 50 pounds of free weights on top and leave it that way for a week

works perfectly.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I am printing a portfolio right now for a photographer , 50 images 2 - 20 x24's each, this will not be mounted and I have been worried about **flatness** this for the period I have been printing this rather large project.

Solution
I have a controlled humidity in my darkroom, so when finished I will pump up the humidity and store the prints in the room over a couple of days, then I will move my smaller hot press into the darkroom and carefully hot press each print and then move them out to normal humidity conditions , in sleeves and in boxes to hold them flat.

This will probably be my new approach to print flattening.
In Toronto Ontario, we have four distinct seasons, during the winter months lets say from Nov 16 to April 15 the humidity drops very low and give us printers a huge amount of problems, therefore I have humidified the whole lab to counteract this damm problem.
During summer the normal humidity is high and things go easy, but I print year round so we need this solution for 6 months of the year.

 

[tkamiya]

I never heard anyone mention this. I treated my prints with Sistan and they curled A LOT less. Just some edges rising up, not like buckling that I usually get. I used Ilford MGIV FB Glossy and AGFA StabAG for this.

I usually dry for 24 hours, Hot press, then in between glass plates with thin glossy release paper on top for 10 minutes or so.

 

[kq6up]

Likely a flat bed dryer would suit you better.
All that is needed is some corrugated board,
the blotter paper, and prints. Top off with
what you have for weighting the stack.

For even drying the board and blotters need
to be over size the prints by an inch or two.
I prefer polyester sheets to blotter because
polyester does not wet; does not blot.

From the bottom; corrugated board, blotter,
prints, blotter, prints, blotter, board. Print
emulsions should face each other. Continue
upward as needed. Weight on top. Slow,
cool, gentile, drying; a few days. Dan

Is it ok to put the prints in the stack fully wet, or do they have to be somewhat dry. I am just concerned about the emulsion sticking to the "blotter material". Also, is there any particular brand of polyester material that you would recommend?

Thanks,
Chris Maness

 

[johnnywalker]

Alternative method to get FB paper dry and flat without dry mount press

This method I learned about 20 years ago from my photography teacher J.Janus...If you dont need the high gloss, then a way of getting FB paper photos dry and absolutely flat without a press is sticking them on a glass pane: You put the still wet sheet of FB paper on the glass pane, so that you can see the picture. Then you carefully clean the surface from water drops, a little bit but not too much with a soft sponge.

All the the edges of your photo you fasten with a special adhesive tape on the pane. The tape is made of paper and is for instance used to fasten water colour papers on a board. Therefore this tape should be available in shops for artistry equipment. This tape is not self-adhesive. You have to wetting it a bit with water (use the sponge again) on the adhesive side. The tape should stick with it´s one half on the photo´s edges and with the other half on the glass pane. It has to overlap in the corners of the photo so that the photo is completely surrounded by the tape.

If this is done you have to wait a few hours until the photo is totally dry. Then you can carefully cut it along the edges from the glass pane with a cutter. When using this drying method you have to make the picture a litltle bit smaller than the FB paper. It is because a part of the adhesive tape stays unremovable sticking on the border of your photo paper and you have to cut it away in the final step.

I used this method many times primary for large formats about 16 x 20 inch and larger (for the smaller sizes drying with a mounting press is easier and faster) and it works very well. In the drying process the paper shrinks and therefore becomes flat out of itself. With the single weight papers it can happen that they burst during the drying, so check it before starting with this method and a lot of photos of the thin paper type. The double weight or thicker FB paper never made any problems.

Anyone who understood? Further questions?

Andreas

This is what I do and it works just fine. I've never had paper "burst" on me, but I do use double weight paper.

 

[cbphoto]

I searched this thread a few different ways, and didn't find anything on this, but how effective are thermostatic dryers like this for fast drying?: http://freestylephoto.biz/2032-Premier-Thermostatic-Print-Dryer-Model-T2C

Also, I am probably going to try the tape-to-glass method mentioned earlier. I have a bunch of the water-activated linen hinging tape (acid-free) that I used for matting. Is there any reason i couldn't use this instead of watercolor tape? Thanks in advance.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I searched this thread a few different ways, and didn't find anything on this, but how effective are thermostatic dryers like this for fast drying?: http://freestylephoto.biz/2032-Premier-Thermostatic-Print-Dryer-Model-T2C

Since I can't afford a dry-mount press I just use one of the dryers you linked to above. But I cut two pieces of acid free rag to fit the bed, and I sandwich my dry print in between the two sheets, and then clamp the canvas down. It makes the prints flat enough to hang behind an over-mat and stay flat.
It's like a poor man's version of a dry-mount press.

 

[hoffy]

Howdy all,

After my first session with Fibre last weekend ended up with two very attractive potato chips (crisps for you English Folk!), I have read and re-read this thread. I have determined that the method I really want to try is the brown tape and pane of glass method. This may seem like some obvious questions but here goes anyway.

1. I know that you are going to squeegee off most of the water, but I assume that there is plenty still around once this is done. I know that the gum on the brown tape needs moistening, but can all this water make it come loose?
2. How many prints does one put on a piece of glass? I was planning on looking for and old window frame from the salvage yard nearest me and was thinking he bigger the pane, the more I can dry at once.
3. Do you dry with the glass laying flat or standing up?

Cheers

 

[papo]

Hoffy, I'll try to answer your questions (being actually the first who recommended this method in this thread)

1. I usually let the prints dry free, they will curl up but never mind. Then I put them in water for a few minutes, just to soak some water and get soft. I put the wet print on some flat vertical surface (tiles in a bathroom will do perfectly) and let the water drip off. Then I put the print on the glass, it (the print) should be wet but not with excess water. I moisten the tape by dragging it over a wet sponge and glue the paper. There should not be much water, because otherwise the glue from the tape will get under the print and the print will get stuck after drying. If this does happen then the only remedy is to submerge the glass with the print in water and it will come off.
2. How many prints you can put on the glass depends on how big the glass is. I have a glass about 50 x 60 cm, 6mm thick and dry usually four prints 18 x 24 cm at once. Because I use this format quite often, I leave the remaining tape frames (after cutting out the prints) on the glass and, in the next session, I put the prints inside the frames and glue them over the old tape. This has an additional advantage that after some rounds the frame builds up to a few tens of millimeter and levels better with the print and so the danger of the glue getting under the print is reduced. Of course this cannot be done indefinitely, if there are too many layers, I just tear off what I can and submerge the whole glass in water to get off the remaining tape, and everything begins from the start again.
3. I usually leave the glass laying flat, but sometimes also standing up. If you do as described in 1. (no danger of water flowing down under the print) then it's no difference.

 

[michael stevens]

I'm new to fibre paper and am currently experimenting with Dancq's stacking method. One problem I've encountered is the lines from the corrugated board becoming impressed upon the print. Perhaps I am using too much pressure. The board I am using comes from thick packing boxes. I can't seem to find any corrugated board on which the lines are not evident when put under pressure.

I am in England so don't have access to the material sources mentioned in previous posts.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

 

[kerne]

Having recently read through this thread I tried several of the methods mentioned. At the moment I'm printing with single and double weight Ilford MG IV FB, both glossy and matte.

1. Taping the well-squeeged print to glass with a painters-grade masking tape works great, and the tape removes cleanly if you're careful.

2. If I'm in a hurry, or doing a pile of prints or proof sheets, I do the following:
- squeegee thoroughly
- bulk dry sandwiched between two window screens (cheap ones from Walmart)
- final dry between two mat boards with a layer of baking-grade parchment paper (silicone impregnated) on the image side to protect the emulsion, topped with a heavy book.

With the second method, it doesn't require a great deal of pressure, just enough to keep it flat while it drys. It may also help (depending on how much moisture is left in the paper after the bulk drying) to replace the matt board after a couple hours. I've stacked as many as six or eight layers of mat board this way without a problem. Drying time will of course vary greatly depending on the humidity, but I usually leave it at least a day or two.

Unless you're using a press, try to avoid heat. Slower drying promotes flatter drying.

 

[michael stevens]

Well I tried again with some heavy-weight card between the interfacing and the corrugated board to try and avoid the lines from the board coming through. The lines had gone but I got diagonal wrinkling from the corners of the heavy-weight card which transferred to the print. The boards are about an inch bigger than the print all round. Perhaps there should be more of an overlap or the prints were too wet when they went in?

 

[AnselAdamsX]

I read through the whole thread and didn't see anyone mention using magnetic strips? Has anyone tried that. All I did for my first print was to use the blue painters tape to tape it to the fridge. It was only a 5x7 print. I didn't even squeegee it. Just let it drip dry.

 

[Bill Burk]

Here's my notes from yesterday when I flattened two 11x14 prints I made over the weekend on Galerie 2 after letting them air dry face up on screens for two days in relatively dry weather:

Press: From cold. Heat on 15 min at mark between 180 & 225 degrees F. Power off and let cool in press 1 1/2 hours.

(Press heat comes from the top) From top down: Smooth, clean mat board face down... Print face up against mat board... Mat paper... Felt base pad.

After removing the print there was slight adhesion of print to mat board. It was easily separated by lifting and running paper between print and mat board lifting slowly. Result left no appreciable lint on the first of two prints I did. But on the second print there was a "sand" speck dent and a noticeable amount of lint.

Prints are flat.

Need a better surface than smooth mat board to press against face of print because the lint is a hazard with this setup.

 

[George Collier]

Bill, what you are doing is almost exactly what we did in college many years ago and I continue to do today - what I do different:
I make folded "sleeves" slightly bigger than the prints (I have sets for each size) made from a roll of glassine (recommended to me for this purpose many years ago by a museum conservator - and cheap). I place each print in its own sleeve, so 2 layers of glassine between each print. Prints are face to face, back to back alternating. I try to line up all the corners, usually they are the same size. I use full size sheets and trim later if needed. This avoids crease marks from the edge of one print to the face of another.
I also don't go that high on the press, just till it is just too hot for me to hold my hand to the patten, but let it cool till room temp, and then a day, if I can wait.
I don't do more than 5 or 6 prints at a time, and they never stick to the glassine.

 

[jayvo86]

We have a Arkay print dryer at the darkroom. I always stick my MGIV facedown with low speed high heat. When it pops out it's tacky. Then, I stick it back in face up, and it will come out pretty flat. I'll usually run it through a 3rd time with lower heat and a faster speed just before filing it in my art binder.

Once in the binder for a day, it will remain pretty flat for fiber.

 

[ParkerSmithPhoto]

Having recently spent several weeks working on my portfolio, and accidentally ruining a day's worth of work in the flattening process, here is what I now do: heat the dry mount press; place the print face down on a sheet of acid free foam core, with a sheet of release paper on top; heat the print for a minute or two; place print into a sandwich of release paper under a 3/4' piece of MDF to cool. This gets it 90% flat. For 100%, I leave the print in the press, turn it off and let it cool. It comes out flat as a floor.

If you heat the print with the glossy side in contact with the release paper, you will often get a dimple, or the release paper will slightly emboss the glossy finish and ruin it. I was very surprised to find that the foam core does not ruin the coating.