getting a personal EI without an enlarger or densimeter?

destroya · Aug 5, 2015

I have a friend who is getting into B&W film. He understands that a proper negative is very important and as such wants to test to get his own Exposure indexes, or film speeds, to shoot at. problem is at this time he has no enlarger (he might pick one up if he gets really into it) and no densimeter. he asked me if there is a way to get an EI of his own for his developer without those 2 key items. I had no idea so I thought I would ask you guys for any advice you might have.

thanks

john

Steve Smith · Aug 5, 2015

I looked into this a while ago and found that if you read various blogs and websites about this, the general conclusion is to shoot the film at half the rated speed and reduice development by about 25%

I tried it, liked it and made that my standard.

Steve.

Xmas · Aug 5, 2015

If his zone 1 shadows have no detectable silver in them he is underexposing.

He needs to get a glazier to flame polish a thick plate glass and contact print for proof on 8x10 silver halide and use a loupe. Spring clips to hold the plate against a block board or similar.

He will need to block off bathroom window or wait till night, set of trays, replace bathroom light with safe light etc.

But my enlarger, safe light, trays etc were all free... From some one going to dark side...

Oscar Carlsson · Aug 5, 2015

I guess he could use a scanner as a densiometer, given some kind of calibration (like a calibrated step-wedge).

Here are some links that might be of interest:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/photocommunity/forums/theforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7782
https://sites.google.com/site/negfix/scan_dens
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?9732-Using-a-scanner-as-a-densitometer
http://www.mrecord.talktalk.net/density_measurement/index.html

ic-racer · Aug 5, 2015

0.1 log D is one-third of a stop. Place the zone 1 image over the sensor of a light meter.

RobC · Aug 5, 2015

+1 to Michaels advice.

I would say to use box ISO speed and developers recommended times and dilutions. Then....

If results are consistently OK then change nothing.
If results are consistently too contrasty and/or thin half ISO speed and reduce development by 30%
If results are consistently too soft (lacking contrast) and/or dense double ISO and increase development by 40%

Fact is the results will be dependant on metering technique (in camera, hadheld incident or handheld spot) and the typical Subject Brightness Range.

Where the SBR is normal, which is around 7 1/2 stops from black to white, then box iSO speed and 1. above should be your standard.
Where the SBR is consistently greater than normal 2. above should be your standard.
Where the SBR is consistently lower than normal then 3. above should be your standard.

To guarantee getting something printable 99% of the time then use a handheld incident meter and 2. above.
When using a handheld incident meter optimally, place it at highlight on the subject and point it directly at the primary light source (Sun, Sky, Window, Flash). This may not give you the best contrast in your negatives but it will make them realatively easy to print.

The problem is, as always with roll film, you may have some subjects on the roll which have normal SBR, some with high SBR and some with Low SBR and trying to get one EI which fits all optimally simply can't be done. Option 2 above is the best compromise unless you know in advance that ALL images on the roll will fit into only one of the three posssibilties in which case you use that specific option.

Then adjust to taste as experience is gained.

Jim Jones · Aug 5, 2015

Many years of experience confirm what Michael and Rob say above. Being excessively scientific is for those who like science more than photography. As for metering, the pros and cons of incident and reflected metering have been discussed too much to bear repeating here. Both work when well understood and properly used.

PinRegistered · Aug 5, 2015

I support the use of a loupe to judge the information on the negatives.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Gerald C Koch · Aug 5, 2015

I question the need for anyone new to analoq photography to have a "personal EI." I would suggest shooting at box speed for now. It will soon become apparent whether any adjustment in speed is required. Perhaps he will need to do this later if he gets bitten by the zone system bug. Has the OP's friend even selected a film and developer?

The concept of needing a personal EI is really a holdover from the days of fixed contrast papers.

M Carter · Aug 5, 2015

I don't have a densitometer and the idea makes my head hurt.

That doesn't mean I'm capricious or careless… I did pretty extensive testing of film & dev combos, and judged the negs by printing with #2.5 filters, not just negs on the light table. I don't think you need to know the density data if you know what makes a nice print.

After years and years of shooting E6 commercially, the biggest thing I learned? B&W film has an insane latitude.

removed account4 · Aug 5, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
I question the need for anyone new to analoq photography to have a "personal EI." I would suggest shooting at box speed for now. It will soon become apparent whether any adjustment in speed is required. Perhaps he will need to do this later if he gets bitten by the zone system bug. Has the OP's friend even selected a film and developer?

The concept of needing a personal EI is really a holdover from the days of fixed contrast papers.

' 1

MattKing · Aug 5, 2015

I would echo all of the above with one qualification.

As the determination of personal EI is really a check on metering technique, meter accuracy, and shutter speed accuracy, it isn't a bad idea to take some test photos brackets around box speed metering of an appropriate test subject, develop them at manufacturer's recommendations, and then examine carefully to see if the shadow detail is well recorded, and at which exposure.

A loupe will serve you well. A scanner might be employed as well.

Bill Burk · Aug 5, 2015

I would teach that a quest for a personal Exposure Index should be a quest to understand how exposure works. And the first thing I would want to understand if I were to start over again, is that underexposure latitude is very small... it is better to overexpose. One simple way I avoid underexposure is to set the Exposure Index 2/3 stop to one stop below the rated film speed.

I understand and trust the rated film speed. And I'll kick EI up to the rated speed if I have to for a faster shutter speed. But if there's no compelling reason against it (If I don't have to use a faster shutter speed than lighting conditions and maximum aperture allow at the lower rating), I'll overexpose slightly to ensure that I get shadow detail that I want.

RPC · Aug 5, 2015

MattKing said:
As the determination of personal EI is really a check on metering technique, meter accuracy, and shutter speed accuracy, it isn't a bad idea to take some test photos brackets around box speed metering of an appropriate test subject, develop them at manufacturer's recommendations, and then examine carefully to see if the shadow detail is well recorded, and at which exposure.

+1

Good advice for a beginner.

RobC · Aug 5, 2015

people obsess over shadow detail. The main point of interest in your subject should be well exposed and concentrating on shadow detail rarely achieves that. And infact it can make printing a nightmare if the SBR is low.

For portrraits the face is all important and if there are some minor parts in the background that are too dark or too light, so what. To compromise the main subject for some idealogical blind faith in shadow represenation seems like madness to me.

OK, if you as an expert have total control and really know what you are doing then you can play about with shadows and highlights to your hearts content, but if you're a beginner and just want to get some decent results straight out of the box then expose for the main point of interest in your subject which isn't likely to be a shadow.

RPC · Aug 5, 2015

Getting good shadow detail is a good place to start, though, when learning the basics of good exposure.

DREW WILEY · Aug 5, 2015

Make your own visual densitometer. It won't be super accurate, but will probably be adequate for this kind of project. You take a decent light box, buy a standard calibrated graphics step tablet just like you'd use with a densitometer - a sheet of film with 21 steps, sold with the
densitometer readings of each step (and not very expensive) - then a couple pieces of black cardboard with a single paper punch hole in the middle. You place your step tablet and negative adjacent to one another on the light box, with that little hole selecting what area of your negative you wish to read, while comparing it to the closest step on the step tablet. With a bit of interpolation you can come pretty close to the true density, at least for small projects, until your eyes get fatigued (like is happening to me right now due to computer use).

markbarendt · Aug 5, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
The concept of needing a personal EI is really a holdover from the days of fixed contrast papers.

Yep.

If you are not using fixed grade paper, just shoot at box speed and develop for box speed then adjust contrast and placement in whatever printing system you use; repeat process regularly.

Try a little extra exposure here and there; remember where it helps, remember where it hurts.

Try a little less exposure here and there; remember where it helps, remember where it hurts.

destroya · Aug 5, 2015

thanks for the info guys. I ave told him as much, just shoot a few rolls and judge for yourself if you need a little more or a little less exposure. but this guy is a true brain, getting his first Ph.d. at the age of 21. but for as smart as he is, he has what I will call, no common sense. so every once in a while I have to nudge him to think outside the box for a possible solution. I did get him a copy of beyond monochrome and he loved it as it had lots of math in it.

anyway, I'll point him to this thread and let him hear it from others. funny how when someone gets ideas or recommendations from a person they don't know, even if its the same info, they give it much more credibility than when hearing it from a friend. actually, that sounds like my kids as well.

DREW WILEY · Aug 5, 2015

I obsess about shadow detail. If you overexpose a neg somewhat, you might be able to salvage the print; but if nothing is down there in the
shadows to begin with, too late. Same ole rule: expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights. But some people sure make this axiom
way more complicated than it needs to be. If I'm experimenting with an unfamiliar film it generally takes me just two or three shots bracketed for ASA to bag my personal EI with any given developer. And I don't even bother pulling out my densitometer for this. With a bit of experience it's pretty easy to evaluate on a lightbox if you've got sufficient shadow exposure. And a few minutes printing tests strips, and I know if I'm right on track or not. One you're actually on the road, it's easier to adjust your style of exposure, 'cause ya gotta mate it to your printing style too!

Jim Noel · Aug 5, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
I question the need for anyone new to analoq photography to have a "personal EI." I would suggest shooting at box speed for now. It will soon become apparent whether any adjustment in speed is required. Perhaps he will need to do this later if he gets bitten by the zone system bug. Has the OP's friend even selected a film and developer?

The concept of needing a personal EI is really a holdover from the days of fixed contrast papers.

A personal EI is not just a holdover from the past. ISO's are established by film manufacturers based on fresh film in a very specific developer, and very specific development techniques. The film we buy is never fresh because it has passed through several warehouses, and been transported several times prior to sitting on the dealer's shelf for who knows how long. . Since the EI is based on shadow density there is a rather simple method for getting close with use of a four sheets of film. I actually make this test with one sheet of film which is far easier to do than it is to put into writing. The test ios totally visual requiring no special instrumentation.

1. On a sunny day set up the camera by a north facing wall. Focus on infinity then swing the camera to face the wall.
2. Insert a holder loaded with film.
3. With the meter set at the mfg ISO. Take a reading of the wall. This will give you a Zone V rendering of the wall. Set the lens and shutter to give a Zone I reading - in other words 4 stops less light than Zone V.
4. Withdraw the slide ½ way. Make the exposure.
5. For the second exposure give 1/3 stop more light, again with the slide partially removed.
6. For the third exposure give 2/3 stop more light in the same manner.
7. For the fourth exposure give one stop more light than exposure number 1.
8. Develop each sheet normally.

9. Assuming one is using a film rated at ISO 100, this will produce negatives with EIs of 100, 80, 64, and 50.

10. The negative which just shows tonality is exposed at the EI appropriate for your procedures.

Oscar Carlsson · Aug 5, 2015

markbarendt said:
Yep.

If you are not using fixed grade paper, just shoot at box speed and develop for box speed then adjust contrast and placement in whatever printing system you use; repeat process regularly.

Try a little extra exposure here and there; remember where it helps, remember where it hurts.

Try a little less exposure here and there; remember where it helps, remember where it hurts.

If one is picky, shooting at box speed with box development might lead to muddy highlights. This can obviously be corrected (who shoots fixed grade these days? I sure don't, unless lith) but increasing the contrast will also darken the midtones, which is not always wanted.

I really prefer my negatives with a tested EI as I find them easier to print well, no excessive dodging or burning or muddy tones in either end.

markbarendt · Aug 5, 2015

Oscar Carlsson said:
If one is picky, shooting at box speed with box development might lead to muddy highlights.

How?

RobC · Aug 5, 2015

markbarendt said:
How?

He gets exactly the same SBR for every shot he takes so they all print perfectly

RobC · Aug 5, 2015

destroya said:
thanks for the info guys. I ave told him as much, just shoot a few rolls and judge for yourself if you need a little more or a little less exposure. but this guy is a true brain, getting his first Ph.d. at the age of 21. but for as smart as he is, he has what I will call, no common sense. so every once in a while I have to nudge him to think outside the box for a possible solution. I did get him a copy of beyond monochrome and he loved it as it had lots of math in it.

anyway, I'll point him to this thread and let him hear it from others. funny how when someone gets ideas or recommendations from a person they don't know, even if its the same info, they give it much more credibility than when hearing it from a friend. actually, that sounds like my kids as well.

He'll be ripe for converting to the zone system then. You better buy him a copy of Adams "The Negative" and he'll be hooked. Ooooohhhh sensitometry!!!

getting a personal EI without an enlarger or densimeter?

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