From small and medium to large; growing pains

pstake · Jan 13, 2014

Been shooting 35mm a long time and medium format (6x7 and TLR 6x6) a long time.

Fancy myself a sound photographer with the eye and the sensibility plus the technical know-how and analytical mind.

At one point, I had an architecture lens for my Pentax 6x7 and thought I had a fair understanding of shift.

But I just started in LF with a 4x5 GV II and I feel like a clutz using the movements. I've been reading The View Camera (bought from someone on heregood book) and I still feel like maybe I'm a lot dumber than I think I am.

Is this normal? I'm almost through my first box of 25 films and am only slightly better than when I started. I'm talking only about using the camera although I've sufficiently f****d up the development as well by agitating incorrectly. That lesson, hopefully, is learned.

snapguy · Jan 13, 2014

worry

I would not worry about it. Some people take longer than others learning certain tasks. Some people can do a million things okay but find there are some tasks that really have them challenged. Take it slow and easy. I consider myself a slow learner but a tiger that won't let go and in the end I learn it pretty good. Others can pick up a new camera/film format and have it nailed in a weekend.
Sometimes when you have to sweat to get it right, it is more rewarding.
Oh, yeah -- enjoy!

dasBlute · Jan 13, 2014

for LF, I worked for quite awhile without tilt/swing/shift really just worked on all the other stuff
one needs to remember [did I already close the shutter before pulling the darkslide? etc, etc],
it all comes with time... stick it out it's worth it. Lot's of things you can't do with LF, but when everything
comes together it can be awesome!

Also, for me, when I use swing or tilt, I don't pre-calculate the scheimpflug or whatever, I just look
on the ground glass as I move things around, it takes time and patience and experimentation

oh yeah, and I regularly screw up still

-Tim

winger · Jan 13, 2014

Think about how you learn best - from reading or from watching or from hearing it. I simply cannot learn how to do something by reading about it. I've been shooting LF for a few years now and still don't completely understand movements because I haven't been able to spend some time with someone trying different scenes. I'd love to take a class, but my schedule hasn't meshed with any, yet.
Besides, there are plenty of other mistakes to be made; many of which happen after the first box of film. There's a thread somewhere on mistakes to be made in LF.

markbarendt · Jan 13, 2014

Yes, normal.

Alan Klein · Jan 13, 2014

I've only shot 35mm and MF. I switched my MF from a waist level viewfinder to the eye level because the waist level's reversed view kept confusing me. I'd aim one way and the cameras looked another way. Isn't LF where everything is upside down?

Fugetaboutit.

Oren Grad · Jan 13, 2014

You're not required to use the movements. Enjoy the big negative and don't sweat it; if and when particular problems arise that require movements to solve, learn and apply what you need.

I've been using LF cameras for 17 years now and rarely find a need for any movements beyond front rise/fall, which you already understand from your medium format experience. YMMV, but don't assume that you need to be comfortable with complex adjustments just because the camera is capable of them.

markbarendt · Jan 13, 2014

Alan Klein said:
Isn't LF where everything is upside down?

Yes.

Top on the bottom, right on the left.

While it can be disconcerting it is also interesting artistically. For some of us it makes it easier to see shapes and relationships because it doesn't look normal.

Trail Images · Jan 13, 2014

Anyone who uses a LF unit has had to go through a learning curve. Getting use to the upside down & backwards is a good starting point. I found it took me a bit of time before injecting movements into the process. I was use to using hyperfocal a lot with my MF gear so I used that process until I saw positive results from the project overall. You really don't get the full benefits of the view camera until you use the movements, beyond image size of course.

Once I felt good about using the LF gear with fairly quick setup and viewing compositions on the ground glass easily I started using movements. Now that stuff seems so natural at this point. It does take time however and of course some sacrificed film along the way with MANY mistakes. But in the end it truly has the rewards IMO. Good luck......

Truzi · Jan 14, 2014

Sometimes learning comes in waves. You will plateau for a while and feel you're not making progress, then the "aha" moment comes and there is improvement. Of course, there will be many plateaus.

I learn best by making mistakes... on purpose. If I follow instructions precisely and get good results, I've not learned anything. So, I will try things at either extreme to see the effects; experiment. When I finally get good results in this manner, I understand why (in a rudimentary but functional way), and then can get even better.

ntenny · Jan 14, 2014

Oren Grad said:
YMMV, but don't assume that you need to be comfortable with complex adjustments just because the camera is capable of them.

A thousand times this. I also think it works far, far better to evaluate movements on the ground glass than to work them out in detail beforehand; I suppose there must be people who feel the other way, but I'm not sure who they are. You can probably shoot a lifetime's worth of LF with no movements at all (I suppose landscapes without tilt would get frustrating, though).

What are you trying to do, exactly, that's proving so difficult? Something more complex than "raise the front standard until the framing is right", I assume.

-NT

Aron · Jan 14, 2014

Something that is worth trying is to practice without film. Practice setting up the camera and if you also enjoy drawing, you can aim the camera at a well-illuminated subject from a semi-darkened room, rendering the darkcloth unnecessary and make drawings off the groundglass. This will help connect you with the image projected onto it intimately.

It's important to enjoy the large negative also without any movements. To me personally using the format is worth it alone for this reason. It's easy to hope to get everything out of the format as soon as you start using it, much like when buying a superb quality musical instrument after years on a good student model. Why not shoot just "regular" subjects first and then move on to architecture?

The more patient you are the earlier will the fruit of the LF tree mature.

EDIT: I didn't see Nathan's post before I posted mine. He pretty much sums it up.

Regular Rod · Jan 14, 2014

pstake said:
Been shooting 35mm a long time and medium format (6x7 and TLR 6x6) a long time.

Fancy myself a sound photographer with the eye and the sensibility plus the technical know-how and analytical mind.

At one point, I had an architecture lens for my Pentax 6x7 and thought I had a fair understanding of shift.

But I just started in LF with a 4x5 GV II and I feel like a clutz using the movements. I've been reading The View Camera (bought from someone on heregood book) and I still feel like maybe I'm a lot dumber than I think I am.

Is this normal? I'm almost through my first box of 25 films and am only slightly better than when I started. I'm talking only about using the camera although I've sufficiently f****d up the development as well by agitating incorrectly. That lesson, hopefully, is learned.

Normal for sure!

Try slowing right down. Try going out and making only one photograph, then get home and develop it. For movements, don't use them at first. Get everything else right, then start with the movements.

It will all come right after a few more tries...

RR

PKM-25 · Jan 14, 2014

It took me a bit to get the hang of it, probably a couple hundred sheets to feel like I could use it on an important shoot. I was 100% all in for a good year to 18 months and then I figured out when I would use it and when I would not. All in all, medium format is still my favorite but LF is still fantastic for when I need it.

Rick A · Jan 14, 2014

I shot buttloads of paper negs trying to get used to LF, it's a super cheap learning tool. Not just cheap, but you can see the results alot sooner if you keep the DR set up for paper processing. As for getting comfortable using all the adjustments, after a while you'll realize you dont really need most of them.

grahamp · Jan 14, 2014

There are some days when I realize that I should have left the 5x4 at home and carried a roll-film camera! I found my first 5x4 outing yielded better work than the second - you have to relax and think more with the larger format and I got cocky . You may not need movements. You rarely need big movements unless you do unusual things. Set up some of the examples from the book, and try to replicate the result without peeking at the answer.

cliveh · Jan 14, 2014

pstake said:
Fancy myself a sound photographer with the eye and the sensibility plus the technical know-how and analytical mind.

Decide on the sort of images/aesthetic you want to produce and let that dictate your MO and format.

Trail Images · Jan 14, 2014

I love using my MF camera, however, I do also like using the LF camera for more then just image size. Especially when running into situations where the composition will produce a "keystone" effect without using movements. On the other hand the "keystone" look maybe what the person may be trying to create. So, in the end it's really what look your trying to accomplish or to undo......

pstake · Jan 14, 2014

cliveh said:
Decide on the sort of images/aesthetic you want to produce and let that dictate your MO and format.

Clive, Sounds like advice i've heard before, sound advice. It reminded me of something, which I posted over here:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Cheers,
Phil

markbarendt · Jan 14, 2014

pstake said:
Clive, Sounds like advice i've heard before, sound advice. It reminded me of something, which I posted over here:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Cheers,
Phil

His advice is good.

k_jupiter · Jan 14, 2014

Millions of photographs were taken with Speed Graphic type press cameras without the movements coming out of detents.

You see the view camera shown looking like a pretzel? Bah!

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do something.

Relax, learn the processes one by one, build the foundation step by step. As you recognize you need an additional feature from your LF camera, you will learn how to use that feature. But in the meantime, the camera will take perfectly nice photos, even spectacular ones with a minimum of confusion.

The key is learn the processes. An 'artist' will get an occasional good photograph even if they don't understand the process, but a 'photographer' will get consistent good results if they understand each step, one by one.

Good light,
tim in san jose

Mark Fisher · Jan 14, 2014

Tim has it right. I did LF for a few years and still miss the movements.....anyway, the way I learned was to only use rear tilt and front rise and fall. That covers most landscape situations and many architectural. Once you have a feel for that, the rest will make more sense.

Mainecoonmaniac · Jan 15, 2014

Practice make perfect

pstake said:
Been shooting 35mm a long time and medium format (6x7 and TLR 6x6) a long time.
But I just started in LF with a 4x5 GV II and I feel like a clutz using the movements. I've been reading The View Camera (bought from someone on heregood book) and I still feel like maybe I'm a lot dumber than I think I am.

Is this normal? I'm almost through my first box of 25 films and am only slightly better than when I started. I'm talking only about using the camera although I've sufficiently f****d up the development as well by agitating incorrectly. That lesson, hopefully, is learned.

All LF shooters go through it. It's a photographer rite of passage. One you've master your LF camera, you'll find focusing and operating the front and standards meditative. You have to cross your T's and dot your I's before inserting the film holder, pulling out the darkslide and clicking the shutter. This makes you a better photographer.

Rafal Lukawiecki · Jan 15, 2014

Just in case you like reading, don't miss out on the articles at http://www.largeformatphotography.info, I don't mean the forum, which is good too, but the large collection of articles that sit "above" the forum.

As for dealing with movements, you got much good advice here, notably that less tends to work better, most of the time. The only thing I could add is that it is good to have someone show you how to cope with a situation in which you would like to use multiple movements. There is an orderly way of adjusting each movement that progressively improves the overall focus, instead of randomly jumping around till you've no idea what is causing which effect. I had the luck of having a skilled photographer show it to me some 14 years ago. She told me it was the way "they taught it in Germany" when she learned in her time. We practiced, without film, in my living room, focusing a rectangular table, at a close distance, in a methodical way, till it was all sharp. Took about an hour, with her.

Other than that, just a few hundred more sheets till it all feels quite natural, and maybe a thousand when you start feeling why two seemingly identical ways to get an effect can differ greatly in their creative potential. Above all, have fun, take your time, don't stress.

Black Dog · Jan 15, 2014

Don't sweat it.....but practice,practice,practice. Keep doing it, keep enjoying it and you will improve.

From small and medium to large; growing pains

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