Found Roll?

[Photo Chemist]

One of my students came in today with two folding cameras. Her father had given her all his old gear which she has been storing in the garage (these two were part of it). We opened all the parts, checked them thoroughly, and then pried open one of the film compartments. To our surprise, it had an exposed roll of 120 film in it (I love treasures like that). We have no idea how old it is. Her father couldn't tell us if it was his or the previous owner (Ruth Stasek (it had a label), we assume from the Chicago area - that's where her father acquired it all). She had no idea what to do with it. I offered to develop it. Do I just process it normally? Or tweak the exposure times? It's a Kodacolor II (c-41) roll.

 

[pentaxuser]

When you say tweak the exposure times I take it that you mean extend the development time from 3 mins 15 secs to say 3 mins 45 secs? I don't know but in asking the question I am trying to anticipate what others may seek clarification on. If you can confirm that your question is on extending dev time it may save time.

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

If I were developing this, I would use normal development.
If there are problems, they will most likely be related to fog, and increased development isn't particularly effective at minimizing the effects of fog with colour negatives.
It could be as old as 1973.

 

[Photo Chemist]

When you say tweak the exposure times I take it that you mean extend the development time from 3 mins 15 secs to say 3 mins 45 secs? I don't know but in asking the question I am trying to anticipate what others may seek clarification on. If you can confirm that your question is on extending dev time it may save time.

pentaxuser

Oh, I’m sorry - I didn’t mean to be so vague. Yes, change the developing time.

 

[Photo Chemist]

If I were developing this, I would use normal development.
If there are problems, they will most likely be related to fog, and increased development isn't particularly effective at minimizing the effects of fog with colour negatives.
It could be as old as 1973.

Thanks! Yes, i have no idea when it was shot - and it could totally be as old as the 1970s. She was able to get the cover off with a screwdriver - which is probably why it was still in there.

 

[iandvaag]

When I was starting out in film photography, I found some film in my grandfather's camera, and I took it to a lab for normal development (also Kodacolor C-41). I really regret it -- it came out totally blank. I wish I would have sent it to some place like Film Rescue International:
https://www.filmrescue.com/

I really think they have the best chance of getting something off of the film. Remember, if you do process it yourself and it doesn't turn out, you can't do it again!

 

[Mick Fagan]

You may wish to consider developing it as a B&W film first, scan it electronically if you get usable images, then develop it in colour developer to see if you can get usable colour.

Sometimes the colour is so far off, the negatives can be unusable. By developing to a B&W image and understanding that there will still be a mask there, you can then, hopefully, get good results via electronic means.

Decades ago I used to develop a colour print in B&W paper developer, then in daylight I used to dip half of the print into colour paper developer and end up with a half B&W half colour print; great party trick.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/b-w-colour-one-sheet.9084/

Around 35/40 years ago, a couple of us fiddled with colour negative film doing a very similar technique. Fortunately way back then, we had access to million dollar German scanning machines for 4 & 5 colour film separations. We found a way to scan the film and eliminate the mask to get almost exceptionally good B&W images. This was pretty much before personal computers were available and the plethora of electronic equipment that we now have in our bedrooms and living rooms for doing almost magical tricks.

Mick.

 

[iandvaag]

Mick's suggestion of first trying a B&W developer, and then "accelerating" the film is a very good one. Simply develop with a B&W developer, fix the film, bleach in rehalogenating bleach, and develop in colour developer, (perhaps several cycles of bleach->colour developer->repeat to build up dye density) before fixing. Rinse well between steps.

This service is also offered by Film Rescue International:
https://www.filmrescue.com/faq/what-is-film-acceleration-and-why-and-when-do-we-do-it/

 

[Photo Chemist]

You may wish to consider developing it as a B&W film first, scan it electronically if you get usable images, then develop it in colour developer to see if you can get usable colour.

Sometimes the colour is so far off, the negatives can be unusable. By developing to a B&W image and understanding that there will still be a mask there, you can then, hopefully, get good results via electronic means.

Decades ago I used to develop a colour print in B&W paper developer, then in daylight I used to dip half of the print into colour paper developer and end up with a half B&W half colour print; great party trick.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/b-w-colour-one-sheet.9084/

Around 35/40 years ago, a couple of us fiddled with colour negative film doing a very similar technique. Fortunately way back then, we had access to million dollar German scanning machines for 4 & 5 colour film separations. We found a way to scan the film and eliminate the mask to get almost exceptionally good B&W images. This was pretty much before personal computers were available and the plethora of electronic equipment that we now have in our bedrooms and living rooms for doing almost magical tricks.

Mick.

I didn't realize that you could keep developing it... I have developed color film as black and white and then scanned it. Without scanning it, the image was nearly unrecognizable. I have a C-41 kit - can I use that? develop is normally? This would be my first time doings this.

 

[pentaxuser]

When I was starting out in film photography, I found some film in my grandfather's camera, and I took it to a lab for normal development (also Kodacolor C-41). I really regret it -- it came out totally blank. I wish I would have sent it to some place like Film Rescue International:
https://www.filmrescue.com/

I really think they have the best chance of getting something off of the film. Remember, if you do process it yourself and it doesn't turn out, you can't do it again!

Have you any idea as to what film rescue do to a C41 film that cannot be done when home developed i.e. is there a range of chemicals that only film rescue have access to which are not available to the home user.

It might be that they rescue the film by high-end scanning means rather than anything special by way of chemicals which effectively may not be available to the home user.

Just curious about what procedures they use.

pentaxuser

 

[iandvaag]

Disclaimer: I have never personally used Film Rescue International since I have only ever "discovered" a single roll of old, unprocessed film and I was unaware of their service at that time. I have simply heard that their service is very good. They are based in a small town in my province, and I've been meaning to go pay them a visit for quite some time now.

What is their advantage? I don't believe that they have access to some obscure chemicals or something like that. They do have a lot of experience developing old films or films that have been stored in unfavourable conditions. With their experience, they can make a well informed guess as to how much restrainer to add to a developer, for example. They have 12 unique processes that they have developed and have shown to produce a reasonable image for different expired film stocks. They don't use standard C-41 processing. The process they choose is based on film type and age. They certainly seem to have the scanning and digital image processing chops to get the best possible image off the film (which could be difficult for a very thin negative), but their advantage comes from their experience in tested developing formulae for these old films. I don't know any of the specifics of their process, and I imagine such information would be proprietary. You can see here that at the very least they know how to do basic sensitometry and have a process yielding a better result than most home tinkering:

They are also conservative, and develop all films as B&W first to have the best possible chance of obtaining an image. As mentioned above, they also do film acceleration.

Could you do it at home? Yes, but if you only have a roll or two, you will be fooling around with tweaking developer formulae and use up all your film doing clip tests! I just say this from my own personal regret. I don't have any horse in the game -- anyone is welcome to do as they like. I just think that if you think there is any chance you will care about the images, Film Rescue's service is worth it.

If the film comes out blank, they don't charge anything, so they are motivated to get the best results possible. They have listed some serious clients (Smithsonian, LBJ Library, Jewish Holocaust Museum, etc.).

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks for the reply, iandvaag. The secret ingredients may well be experience with many older films and more experience than most of us could accumulate by handling old films in the quantity that any single home user could never reach.

pentaxuser

 

[Mick Fagan]

I didn't realize that you could keep developing it... I have developed color film as black and white and then scanned it. Without scanning it, the image was nearly unrecognizable. I have a C-41 kit - can I use that? develop is normally? This would be my first time doings this.

Not quite, but maybe.

It has been a very long time since I did C41 this way. The C41 process I have always used is: colour developer, bleach, fix and finally, stabiliser. There are washes in-between.

Processing kits generally have a combined bleach and fix bath, these would make it virtually impossible to do extra bleaching and colour developing over and over. I'm not a photo chemist so I'm not 100% sure about this, but I do think once you have run a film through a bleach/fix combined bath, that is it as far as re-developing colour again and again goes.

I would be interested in seeing your scans from your B&W developed C41 film, sounds like you like fiddling with film.

Mick.

 

[iandvaag]

Yup once you fix (or blix), you are done since the silver has been removed from the film, and thus cannot be redeveloped.

If your C-41 kit uses a blix, you can probably still try out film acceleration. Rudi has a great resource on mixing up separate bleach and fix from a blix kit. Alternative, you could make up a reholgenating bleach from potassium ferricyanide and potassium bromide. I'll give the standard warning that the current generation of colour couplers has not been tested for compatability with ferricyanide, but then again, this is old film so all bets are off for "safe and standard practices". I've personally never had any problem using ferricyanide bleach with colour films, but I haven't done any rigorous densitometry. You might want to use a clearing bath between bleaching and redevelopment. A 1% w/v NaSO3 solution should work well. Also, be sure to rinse well between (re)developer and bleach to avoid a direct redox reaction between the developer and bleach which can leave a stain in the film.

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

Film rescue is a treasure, but you could probably just take that c41 roll to a regular lab that does c41.

 

[removed account4]

Hi Photo Chemist:
I'd just take it to a reglar lab that does 120/c41. If you want to process it as black and white and scan orange mask black and white images, use something like dektol or ansco130 dilute 1:6 for 6mins. They might help reduce the fog that built up over the years of being exposed to
the garage's temperature change ( heat + cold ) humidity, and those pesky muons. I suppose if the film has some really important+deep personal importance one could send it to the Film Rescue .. IDK garage found film to me at least seems like a regular lab or good old dektol.

Have fun whatever you do !
John

 

[koraks]

If combined Blix is a problem, you could use a b&w rapid fix and neutralize it using e.g. ammonia; a pH meter or indicator strips are useful to get the pH as near to 6.5 as possible. This approach can be used if there is no practical access to a proper C41 fix. Likewise, a ferricyanide bleach can be used, but ample rinsing should be applied between developer and bleach (and/or a developer neutralizing bath of sodium sulfite) and preferably also between bleach and fix. These are of course deviations of official C41 processing, especially the bleach, but with some care/precautions, they do work.

 

[Photo Chemist]

If combined Blix is a problem, you could use a b&w rapid fix and neutralize it using e.g. ammonia; a pH meter or indicator strips are useful to get the pH as near to 6.5 as possible. This approach can be used if there is no practical access to a proper C41 fix. Likewise, a ferricyanide bleach can be used, but ample rinsing should be applied between developer and bleach (and/or a developer neutralizing bath of sodium sulfite) and preferably also between bleach and fix. These are of course deviations of official C41 processing, especially the bleach, but with some care/precautions, they do work.

This sounds fun - I have access to ammonia, ferricyanide and pH paper. But, honestly, I think it's more than I really want to do. I understand the chemistry behind it - and I think it would be a really interesting experiment. However, I'm not sure I want to experiment with this found roll.

 

[Photo Chemist]

Hi Photo Chemist:
I'd just take it to a reglar lab that does 120/c41. If you want to process it as black and white and scan orange mask black and white images, use something like dektol or ansco130 dilute 1:6 for 6mins. They might help reduce the fog that built up over the years of being exposed to
the garage's temperature change ( heat + cold ) humidity, and those pesky muons. I suppose if the film has some really important+deep personal importance one could send it to the Film Rescue .. IDK garage found film to me at least seems like a regular lab or good old dektol.

Have fun whatever you do !
John

Thanks, John! Maybe I'll just do it myself, if it's a regular C41 process - or try dektol. I think I have some at home (I know I have some in the lab).

 

[koraks]

You're absolutely right, this roll might not be the right instance for a fun chemistry experiment.