Formula to Rapid Fixers?

[Mani_Reshad]

Hey there everyone!

I've been wondering how to cook up my own fixers and I've came across many formulas. Well all I know is that I'm out here looking for a formula working similarly as Ilford's Rapid Fixer. I would be really glad to know what options I'd have.

 

[Milpool]

Hey there everyone!

I've been wondering how to cook up my own fixers and I've came across many formulas. Well all I know is that I'm out here looking for a formula working similarly as Ilford's Rapid Fixer. I would be really glad to know what options I'd have.

I'll say in advance home-mixing a rapid fixer typically isn't going to save you money vs buying the Ilford product, but if you are inclined, I'd use the following formula as it is roughly neutral in pH. The fixing action itself will be the same as any standard rapid fixer.

200ml 60% ammonium thiosulfate solution
15g sodium sulfite
5g sodium metabisulfite/bisulfite
water to make 1l working solution

You can multiply the above amounts by 4 or 5 to make a 1l concentrate/stock solution. Since the pH is neutral it will have a longer shelf life than an equivalent acidic rapid fixer.

Commercially available ~neutral rapid fixers such as Kodak Flexicolor or Sprint Record Speed Fixer are probably more economical to buy than the ingredients to home-mix.

 

[Mani_Reshad]

I'll say in advance home-mixing a rapid fixer typically isn't going to save you money vs buying the Ilford product, but if you are inclined, I'd use the following formula as it is roughly neutral in pH. The fixing action itself will be the same as any standard rapid fixer.

200ml 60% ammonium thiosulfate solution
15g sodium sulfite
5g sodium metabisulfite/bisulfite
water to make 1l working solution

You can multiply the above amounts by 4 or 5 to make a 1l concentrate/stock solution. Since the pH is neutral it will have a longer shelf life than an equivalent acidic rapid fixer.

Commercially available ~neutral rapid fixers such as Kodak Flexicolor or Sprint Record Speed Fixer are probably more economical to buy than the ingredients to home-mix.

I'm honestly trying to be independent of any commercial chemistry and fixer is a important step to that. I very appreciate your answer and would like to ask some questions about this formula.

What are the Dilutions and how much do they vary between paper and film?
and also what is the normal development time? similar to ilford rapid fixer I assume?

thanks for you reply again and I was wondering if you know any formulas to mixing some ilfotol as well as long as we're here and talking about it.

 

[pentaxuser]

I have never used this one but the testing of it by the presenter of the video indicates that it works like a commercial rapid fixer



pentaxuser

 

[ags2mikon]

Look at Agfa 304 fixer. It actually works very well. I have a darkroom in a motor home and I don't want really want liquid concentrates inside there because of multiple reasons. I have made some slight modifications to the formula as recommended by someone here on the forum, I can't remember who, sorry, and it even works with T MAX. I,m not at the motor home at the moment so I'll post back later the mods. Most of the ingredients were locally obtained, sodium thiosulphate penta hydrate aka pool chlorine remover, ammonium chloride aka supplement for raising goats. The potassium metabisulfite I had to order. I use that also for a stop bath.

 

[Milpool]

I'm honestly trying to be independent of any commercial chemistry and fixer is a important step to that. I very appreciate your answer and would like to ask some questions about this formula.

What are the Dilutions and how much do they vary between paper and film?
and also what is the normal development time? similar to ilford rapid fixer I assume?

thanks for you reply again and I was wondering if you know any formulas to mixing some ilfotol as well as long as we're here and talking about it.

The formula posted is the working solution. I suggest using the same working concentration for film and paper, but that is my preference - when I use Ilford Rapid Fixer I use the 1+4 dilution for film or paper, but some people use the 1+9 dilution for paper.

The working characteristics/processing times should be the same as the 1+4 dilution of Ilford Rapid Fixer but you can test for proper fixation.

Ilfotol and Kodak Photo-Flo are wetting agents (surfactants). A variety of compounds can be used. Some people like to skip this step. I think that is bad advice.

 

[koraks]

I'm honestly trying to be independent of any commercial chemistry

Well, I'm afraid you're not going to get there unless you're going to scrape sulfur from the mouth of a live volcano and figure out a way to turn that into thiosulfate. Whatever you're going to do, you'll end up being reliant on the chemical industry one way or another.
For rapid fixer, the 'best' you can do is either a sodium thiosulfate-based rapid fixer that exploits the 'trick' of adding ammonium ions in the form of e.g. ammonium chloride, or starting with ammonium thiosulfate either as a concentrated solution (typically 60%) or solid crystals. The latter are slightly problematic to work with as they tend to decompose, and a fixer made with amm. thiosulfate crystals tends to end up being very cloudy with some elemental sulfur floating around in it. This can be filtered out, but it adds another process step (and filtration is kind of slow to begin with).

I've made quite a lot of fixer myself, rapid and otherwise, and I've never found it to be a particularly smart way of working. If you use pool-grade sodium thiosulfate, it is cheap, yes, especially if you can also find a cheap source of ammonium chloride. You still end up doing work that is realistically speaking unnecessary given the good availability and manageable cost of ready-made rapid fixer. I can imagine this is perhaps not the case in same parts of the world and I don't know what the present supply situation is in Iran, so maybe that could be part of the rationale of going for a DIY fixer.

Anyway, a rapid fixer is really as simple as chucking some ammonium thiosulfate into water. If you start with sodium thiosulfate, then use that and some ammonium chloride. The quantities actually aren't very critical; a couple of heaping spoonfuls of thiosulfate per liter is a good starting point; maybe one or two heaping spoonfuls of sodium chloride. If you mix it right before use, you don't have to worry about adding any sulfite either as it won't have time to go bad anyway. If you want to store your fixer for a while, add a few spoonfuls of sulfite (preferably ammonium, but sodium is cheaper).

There are plenty of formulas on the net and also on Photrio that will give 'exact' grams etc. But as said, it's not critical. Do a clip test before using your fixer and base your fixing time on the clearing time you observe.

 

[Ben Hutcherson]

One of the challenges with rolling your own rapid fix is the cost of the ammonium thiosulfate. I understand independence from commercial suppliers, but at the same time I posted a cost break-down for a simple Kodak formula rapid fix the other day compared to its commercial equivalent. Buying a bottle of concentrate to make 3.8L comes out a bit in favor of mixing yourself by a couple of dollars, but if you are willing to purchase commercial products in larger quantities you really start to shift toward a big cost savings. This is especially true of something like Kodak Flexicolor III, which is marketed for C41 but really is an amazing product for any use. It's also especially true for film fixer, which is usually used at about double the concentration of paper fixer(most commercial concentrates specify 1:4 for film and 1:9 for paper).

If you want to mix yourself, I'd encourage you to look at some of the alkaline recipes out there. They have several advantages to acidic fixers, chief among them is easier washing compared to acidic fixers. C-41 fixer is near neutral, which still has a lot of the same advantages of a true alkali fixer.

Here's a page with some good "recipes" for alkali fixers http://www.pictorialplanet.com/advanced_photography/alkaline_fixers.html

 

[pentaxuser]

One of the difficulties the OP may be facing is getting commercial Rapid Fixers. Yes he may face difficulties obtaining raw chemicals as well but the smaller the range of chemicals he needs then the easier it may be to obtain them

As of 3 years ago the presenter of the Agfa 304 video said that ammonium thiosulfate was difficult to obtain in the U.K. and was given Suvatlar as a source by someone who produces Pyro 510 commercially in the U.K. but how much he needs to order at a time may be very large for the OP who is in Iran assuming it can be exported there anyway at a reasonable cost

pentaxuser

 

[ags2mikon]

A lot of this depends upon where you live. I can't walk into a store and buy anything photographic, not even film. In my main darkroom I use c-41 fixer for black and white. I think that the OP lives in Iran and I don't know the circumstances in Iran. It is an oil producing nation and I'm quite sure they have mobile NDT units that use film and chemistry and they use rapid fixer, at least they do here, and that would also work. The same with the medical industry.

 

[Milpool]

Neutral fixers wash as well as alkaline fixers. The benefits of alkaline fixers are the nice ammonia smell and that the stop step needs to be more thorough to avoid development restarting.

 

[Milpool]

One of the difficulties the OP may be facing is getting commercial Rapid Fixers. Yes he may face difficulties obtaining raw chemicals as well but the smaller the range of chemicals he needs then the easier it may be to obtain them

As of 3 years ago the presenter of the Agfa 304 video said that ammonium thiosulfate was difficult to obtain in the U.K. and was given Suvatlar as a source by someone who produces Pyro 510 commercially in the U.K. but how much he needs to order at a time may be very large for the OP who is in Iran assuming it can be exported there anyway at a reasonable cost

pentaxuser

If it is easier to obtain sodium thiosulfate and ammonium chloride then you can make a somewhat rapid fixer. Not quite as good but I guess if you really can't buy a standard rapid fixer I suppose you do what you have to do.

 

[xkaes]

If you goal is solely "to be independent of any commercial chemistry", as koraks has said -- good luck with that.

If your goal is to use as little chemicals as possible, whether or not you make your own "fixer", you can run some simple tests to figure out how much chemical you need to use to adequately fix your negative/prints -- at any given dilution. That not only helps the environment, it saves you money.

 

[koraks]

ammonium thiosulfate was difficult to obtain in the U.K.

Yes, which makes the DIY rapid fixer project a good example of putting the horse behind the cart.

 

[Mani_Reshad]

Well, I'm afraid you're not going to get there unless you're going to scrape sulfur from the mouth of a live volcano and figure out a way to turn that into thiosulfate. Whatever you're going to do, you'll end up being reliant on the chemical industry one way or another.
For rapid fixer, the 'best' you can do is either a sodium thiosulfate-based rapid fixer that exploits the 'trick' of adding ammonium ions in the form of e.g. ammonium chloride, or starting with ammonium thiosulfate either as a concentrated solution (typically 60%) or solid crystals. The latter are slightly problematic to work with as they tend to decompose, and a fixer made with amm. thiosulfate crystals tends to end up being very cloudy with some elemental sulfur floating around in it. This can be filtered out, but it adds another process step (and filtration is kind of slow to begin with).

I've made quite a lot of fixer myself, rapid and otherwise, and I've never found it to be a particularly smart way of working. If you use pool-grade sodium thiosulfate, it is cheap, yes, especially if you can also find a cheap source of ammonium chloride. You still end up doing work that is realistically speaking unnecessary given the good availability and manageable cost of ready-made rapid fixer. I can imagine this is perhaps not the case in same parts of the world and I don't know what the present supply situation is in Iran, so maybe that could be part of the rationale of going for a DIY fixer.

Anyway, a rapid fixer is really as simple as chucking some ammonium thiosulfate into water. If you start with sodium thiosulfate, then use that and some ammonium chloride. The quantities actually aren't very critical; a couple of heaping spoonfuls of thiosulfate per liter is a good starting point; maybe one or two heaping spoonfuls of sodium chloride. If you mix it right before use, you don't have to worry about adding any sulfite either as it won't have time to go bad anyway. If you want to store your fixer for a while, add a few spoonfuls of sulfite (preferably ammonium, but sodium is cheaper).

There are plenty of formulas on the net and also on Photrio that will give 'exact' grams etc. But as said, it's not critical. Do a clip test before using your fixer and base your fixing time on the clearing time you observe.

One of the challenges with rolling your own rapid fix is the cost of the ammonium thiosulfate. I understand independence from commercial suppliers, but at the same time I posted a cost break-down for a simple Kodak formula rapid fix the other day compared to its commercial equivalent. Buying a bottle of concentrate to make 3.8L comes out a bit in favor of mixing yourself by a couple of dollars, but if you are willing to purchase commercial products in larger quantities you really start to shift toward a big cost savings. This is especially true of something like Kodak Flexicolor III, which is marketed for C41 but really is an amazing product for any use. It's also especially true for film fixer, which is usually used at about double the concentration of paper fixer(most commercial concentrates specify 1:4 for film and 1:9 for paper).

If you want to mix yourself, I'd encourage you to look at some of the alkaline recipes out there. They have several advantages to acidic fixers, chief among them is easier washing compared to acidic fixers. C-41 fixer is near neutral, which still has a lot of the same advantages of a true alkali fixer.

Here's a page with some good "recipes" for alkali fixers http://www.pictorialplanet.com/advanced_photography/alkaline_fixers.html

One of the difficulties the OP may be facing is getting commercial Rapid Fixers. Yes he may face difficulties obtaining raw chemicals as well but the smaller the range of chemicals he needs then the easier it may be to obtain them

As of 3 years ago the presenter of the Agfa 304 video said that ammonium thiosulfate was difficult to obtain in the U.K. and was given Suvatlar as a source by someone who produces Pyro 510 commercially in the U.K. but how much he needs to order at a time may be very large for the OP who is in Iran assuming it can be exported there anyway at a reasonable cost

pentaxuser

A lot of this depends upon where you live. I can't walk into a store and buy anything photographic, not even film. In my main darkroom I use c-41 fixer for black and white. I think that the OP lives in Iran and I don't know the circumstances in Iran. It is an oil producing nation and I'm quite sure they have mobile NDT units that use film and chemistry and they use rapid fixer, at least they do here, and that would also work. The same with the medical industry.

Yes, which makes the DIY rapid fixer project a good example of putting the horse behind the cart.

Actually we have Ilford Rapid Fixers here in Iran but they’re insanely expensive and no product of Kodak is to be found here(not at least as much as Ilford) and obviously no C-41 chemicals such as its fixer and these are the reasons I‘m going for the DIY option. In fact it is cheaper to get your hands on ammonium thiosulfate than it is to get Ilford‘s Rapid Fixers.

On a random note, is it also ok to get solid ATS and mix 600g of it in 1lt of water to get the 60%?

 

[xkaes]

Actually we have Ilford Rapid Fixers here in Iran but they’re insanely expensive and no product of Kodak is to be found here(not at least as much as Ilford) and obviously no C-41 chemicals such as its fixer and these are the reasons I‘m going for the DIY option. In fact it is cheaper to get your hands on ammonium thiosulfate than it is to get Ilford‘s Rapid Fixers.

Given your circumstances, it might be prudent to use a sodium thiosulfate & ammonium chloride rapid fixer as korkas has suggested. Those chemicals might be much easier to obtain and afford -- and will work. That's actually what I use -- even though I have plenty of other options. Off-the-shelf Rapid Fixer goes "bad" just sitting in the un-opened bottle. Not a problem with the raw chemicals.

 

[Ian Grant]

You can certainly dissolve the solid in water to get a solution, but as others have mentioned the solid is not particularly stable and you're likely to end up with a lot of undissolved solid.

Also 600g in 1L of water will give you a ~37.5% solution(%m/m). To get a 60% solution you will want 600g in 400mL of water.

It's 60% by weight, so 600g per litre.

Ian

 

[MattKing]

The evolution of this thread makes it clear that this is always a two stage question:
1) what are the various options;
and then, after some discussion.
2) given that the following components are available in my marketplace: A at X cost, B at Y cost, C at Z cost - what options are recommended, and why?

 

[koraks]

On a random note, is it also ok to get solid ATS and mix 600g of it in 1lt of water to get the 60%?

Understood on the local availability issue.
Yes, you can use solid ATS. As I wrote, you can expect some minor problems with partial sulfuring out, resulting in a cloudy solution. This depends mostly on the age and storage conditions of your ATS.

60% by weight is ambiguous, is that %m/m or %m/v?

Who cares, dump a bunch in water and call it good. It's fixer; as long as it gets the job done, it doesn't really matter if you're off by 20% w.r.t. concentration.

 

[john_s]

I buy fixer, because ammonium thiosulphate is hard to obtain where I am. If I were mixing from scratch, I would start with this formula:

A Neutral Quick Fixer Formula

I present here an odorless quick acting fixer based on Sodium Thiosulfate: 200 g/l Sodium Thiosulfate Pentahydrate (= crystalline) 40-45 g/l Ammonium Chloride 10 g/l Sodium Sulfite 2.2 g/l Sodium Metabisulfite Resulting pH is about 6.5, which...

www.photrio.com

 

[pentaxuser]

Yes, which makes the DIY rapid fixer project a good example of putting the horse behind the cart.

Yes, the the possible difficulty of obtaining the Ammonium Thiosulphate is why I suggested the video on #4 about Agfa 304

pentaxuser

 

[Ian Grant]

60% by weight is ambiguous, is that %m/m or %m/v?

If the former, my calculation is correct. If the latter, yes you'd need to dissolve to a final volume of 1L. 600g of any substance dissolved in water is going to increase the volume of water substantially. I'd not be surprised if you still end up only needing ~500mL of water...

Regardless, I can't think of any scenario where 600g in 1L of water will give a 60% solution...

No ambiguity, unlike Sodium Thiosulphate Ammonium Thiosulphate is only found in one stable crystalline form, although it quickly absorbs water. This is why it's hard to get in crystalline form, instead it's sold as a stable 60% solution by weight, the exact concentration is determined and adjusted by assay.

I ran a laboratory, for many years, analysing mostly precious metals, other metals, but other compounds to 5 decimal places of a gram.

If you don't understand the simplicity of a 60% weight to volume, then you are either grossly overthinking, or as Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull wrote "Thick as a Brick".

Then check out Data & MSDS sheets for 60% Sodium Thiosuphate and they state 60% weight to volume, they are definitely unambiguous.

Ian

 

[Don_ih]

w/v is weight of the solute divided by the volume of the final solution. So, add water to 600g of ammonium thiosulfate until you reach 1 litre volume for a 60% w/v solution.

 

[xkaes]

This is all just one more reason to use sodium thiosulfate.

 

[MattKing]

Moderator hat on,
I think that should be enough of a discussion about understanding how concentrations are expressed - and personal invective of any sort is not permitted