For UK Ilford users

Adrian Twiss said:

...possibly rather caustic observation...

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Possibly??

Many fail to understand that cost and price are only related to the extent that, should a market for goods not support prices which cover cost + profit, manufacturing will cease. I suggest anyone who can't or won't purchase HARMAN's products at prices retailers offer them ought consider the alternatives. Other high-priced film/paper, lower-tier quality film/paper and/or no silver gelatin film/paper at all.

Relevant quotations / song titles:

• "Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing."
• "Don't Know What You Got (Till It's Gone)"

Sal, should whatever causes the higher price we pay for Ilford products here in the U.K. and many reasons apparently unconnected to Ilford such as higher employment costs, sales taxes(VAT) have been advanced as reasons suddenly apply to the U.S. and your prices match ours then I hope for all our sakes and Ilford's that the U.S. customer is able to shrug his shoulders and utter that famous phrase "C'est la vie" and simply say "I'll continue to support Ilford and trust that the price increase here in the U.S. is both unavoidable and fully justifiable".

pentaxuser

Sal Santamaura said:

Possibly??

Many fail to understand that cost and price are only related to the extent that, should a market for goods not support prices which cover cost + profit, manufacturing will cease. I suggest anyone who can't or won't purchase HARMAN's products at prices retailers offer them ought consider the alternatives. Other high-priced film/paper, lower-tier quality film/paper and/or no silver gelatin film/paper at all.

Relevant quotations / song titles:

• "Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing."
• "Don't Know What You Got (Till It's Gone)"

Click to expand...

yes I use Forma film some of the time but most others use digital.
If you don't have money you can't spend it.

There is one awkward question that still has not been answered properly.

"Why is ILFORD film more expensive in England than it is in the USA?"

I'm not going to stop using ILFORD yet but there are few feelings more upsetting than the feeling of being a ripped off mug.

RR

"Why is ILFORD film more expensive in England than it is in the USA?"

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There could be many reasons, and I am sure Ilford will not divulge their marketing strategies. Why is anything dearer in the UK than US? This applies to software, clothing, electricals etc etc. Fact is US and UK are different economies.

Couple of years ago I was in Norway in a bar with a mate and a beer was about 9EUR which is about $12. Watching the students swigging it down like students do while we nursed our (to us) very expensive drinks, we were prompted to ask the bar girl what she earned. Turned out about 20EUR an hour. Now a bar girl in UK on minimum wage earns about £7/9EUR an hour and a beer here is about £3.50, so despite the huge difference in beer prices, you still have to work about the same amount of time to earn enough to buy one, and obviously the staff costs are reflected in the product price.

There are many reasons why prices in different markets are different. A manufactuerer might choose for example to supply overseas markets as bulk purchase only, whilst supplying a local market on a "sale or return" basis; the latter having more chance of product visiblility and availability, but requiring factoring risk cost of some returns. Not saying that this is how Ilford market, but just illustrating that "price" is more than just "cost" plus "margin".

As to silver costs, I seem to recall Simon saying on the factory tour that Ilford hedge against silver prices. This means that changes to short-term spot prices have little effect either way. Eventually if silver prices stay down the price will adjust to what the market can stand. Fact of life prices don't automatically go down; it takes one player to decide that by reducing price they can take potentially take a bigger market share. Others then have to follow to maintain the status quo. Personally, I don't shoot enough that the odd pound difference between ilford and any other alternative is the deciding factor; let's face it you only have to waste one sheet of fibre paper and that's the difference between different film costs. For me I factor in quality and consistency combined with good availability.

mr rusty said:

There could be many reasons, and I am sure Ilford will not divulge their marketing strategies....
Personally, I don't shoot enough that the odd pound difference between ilford and any other alternative is the deciding factor; let's face it you only have to waste one sheet of fibre paper and that's the difference between different film costs. For me I factor in quality and consistency combined with good availability.

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I waste a lotta paper as well but it is Forma paper, Ive been given lots from people gong digital...

The local (London) shop here has

Formapan 400 at 2.94 (GBP inclusive VAT)
Kentmere 400 at 3.61
Trix at 4.62
HP5 at 4.68
Delta 400 at 5.66

On their web page...

So when my gadget bag is empty I buy the Forma. Ive not had any problems with any of the Forma film, other than availability (I suspect all the local photog/art college students empty the shop of Forma) and Ive used a lotta Forma film, I was given cans of bulk by people going to digital, otherwise Id a thought it cheap and horrible... Formapan 400 has larger grain in Rodinal or ID68, than either Ilford film. I use Formapan 100 if I'm worried.

Ive hedged against film availability, more normally I rely on previous purchases of bulk (some Forma), remaindered surveillance film, as well as cine HP5 (from 2002) and 5222, cause one day Id like to have space for food in my fridge.

But to remind people this is a thread about a bulk buy from the USA cause it would be cheaper, the OP used the words 'ripped off', well we have options

- buying from the USA encourages Ilford to send more film to the USA, and further reduce their margins there, it is hardly eco friendly, i.e. sending film 6000 miles instead of 200.
- buying Forma locally encourages Ilford's retailers to reduce their orders, film is a 'perishable' commodity, they may stock Forma instead, and when their current Ilford stock gets to its sell buy date and is reduced in price we can buy it then?

I expect to pay more for film, and more in the future, but Kentmere from up the M way should not be more expensive than film from the East, in the same local shop, unless it is being dumped here cause they have saturated the USA market?

I'm not interested in Ilford's Marketing Strategy, I only hope that Forma are (to Bowderlise the OP's phrase) neither 'ripping of' their home market, nor suddenly disappear.

Hey I could save a few pennies and buy Trix, but will Trix cost more of it is poured at Harrow?

Must tie a knot in hanky and load up 30 cassettes for the weekends CNY festival...

mr rusty said:

There could be many reasons, and I am sure Ilford will not divulge their marketing strategies. Why is anything dearer in the UK than US? This applies to software, clothing, electricals etc etc. Fact is US and UK are different economies.

Couple of years ago I was in Norway in a bar with a mate and a beer was about 9EUR which is about $12. Watching the students swigging it down like students do while we nursed our (to us) very expensive drinks, we were prompted to ask the bar girl what she earned. Turned out about 20EUR an hour. Now a bar girl in UK on minimum wage earns about £7/9EUR an hour and a beer here is about £3.50, so despite the huge difference in beer prices, you still have to work about the same amount of time to earn enough to buy one, and obviously the staff costs are reflected in the product price.

There are many reasons why prices in different markets are different. A manufactuerer might choose for example to supply overseas markets as bulk purchase only, whilst supplying a local market on a "sale or return" basis; the latter having more chance of product visiblility and availability, but requiring factoring risk cost of some returns. Not saying that this is how Ilford market, but just illustrating that "price" is more than just "cost" plus "margin".

As to silver costs, I seem to recall Simon saying on the factory tour that Ilford hedge against silver prices. This means that changes to short-term spot prices have little effect either way. Eventually if silver prices stay down the price will adjust to what the market can stand. Fact of life prices don't automatically go down; it takes one player to decide that by reducing price they can take potentially take a bigger market share. Others then have to follow to maintain the status quo. Personally, I don't shoot enough that the odd pound difference between ilford and any other alternative is the deciding factor; let's face it you only have to waste one sheet of fibre paper and that's the difference between different film costs. For me I factor in quality and consistency combined with good availability.

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All the reasons cited should bring the price down in the UK.

Wages are lower here where the film is made. There is no transatlantic shipping cost to get the film to us. Silver prices might cause film to cost more but certainly have nothing to do with it costing more in England than in America.

A box of 25 sheets of FP4 Plus 8x10 costs £124.15 in England from AG

A box of 25 sheets of FP4 Plus 8x10 costs $124.95 in USA from B&H. This is equivalent to £75.70 and it has had to be transported across the Atlantic. Yes, since joining the Common Market now the EU, we have had to pay VAT on nearly everything, but that is 20%. This would make the price £90.84. Why is it £124.15?
:confused:
RR

pentaxuser said:

Sal, should whatever causes the higher price we pay for Ilford products here in the U.K. and many reasons apparently unconnected to Ilford such as higher employment costs, sales taxes(VAT) have been advanced as reasons suddenly apply to the U.S. and your prices match ours then I hope for all our sakes and Ilford's that the U.S. customer is able to shrug his shoulders and utter that famous phrase "C'est la vie" and simply say "I'll continue to support Ilford and trust that the price increase here in the U.S. is both unavoidable and fully justifiable"...

Click to expand...

But you seem to have missed my point.

The prices of Ilford film and paper, in every market where they're sold, are what they are. A combination of factors throughout the distribution chains, starting with HARMAN's raw material costs, but including numerous other situations and decisions, drives those prices. No shoulder shrugging or trusting that price increases are justifiable is involved. Consumers either buy the products, paying what retailers ask for them, or they don't. If enough do, the products will continue to be manufactured. If not enough do, production will cease. It's that simple.

Personally, I prefer Delta 100 sheet film, which is offered in every size I might need (4x5, 5x7, 6.5x8.5, 8x10 and 11x14), to anything available from Kodak, the only other supplier (save a bit of 4x5 Acros) at the same first-tier quality level. I hugely enjoy Galerie paper and will soon try Multigrade Cooltone as well. There are no extant Kodak or Fuji fiber-based paper alternatives, only lesser-quality output from obsolete coating plants. I purchase as much as I can afford of the Ilford products. My late grandfather told me many decades ago that I wasn't rich enough to afford cheap things. He was correct.

I don't know what all the factors are leading to higher UK prices for Ilford film and paper. If a group purchase from the US lowers your cost of acquiring superior products, go for it, despite the absurd multi-thousand-mile round-trip shipping. In the event that some of the factors which lead to higher UK prices are decisions which the supply chain can alter, it probably will when your overseas purchases negatively affect local sales. Should reasons for the higher UK prices be out of the distribution chain's control, a point will be reached where your US buying drives local UK retailing of Ilford products out of existence. You will have, with your GBPs, voted that a lower price is more important than domestic availability. Your choice.

Dear All,

I think too many erroneous and incorrect statements are starting to get made,

Two for a start :

Its cheaper to ship in the UK than to AMERICA.... Incorrect : It depends on the volume you ship.

Labour rates are cheaper in the UK than in the US.... Incorrect :


But as always everyone is entitled to their opinion and as always you are the consumers and you make the choice on which products that you buy. We recognise and deeply respect that, but on the other side we see patently incorrect statements that are unfair.

There are actually no simple answers to the many issues raised in this thread, I have lots of answers, I also have a commercial responsibility to keep our dealings with our customers around the world private and confidential.

On APUG of course, rarely, you have a direct line to a manufacturer, so you expect an answer, as you know I always answer as best as I am able.

We have a worldwide pricing policy ( ex factory ) that should not disadvantage any market over another, but we do not directly control the prices that our products are sold at, indeed in many countries ( including the EU ) it would be illegal for us to do so under the consumer protection laws that we as a responsible company respect and uphold.

The factors are numerous :

Local and national competition selling ILFORD Photo products

Competition from other products

Sales Taxes

Import duties and import taxes

Margins applied in the Distributor supply chain and at re-sellers

Differing pricing policies by resellers

Shipping costs

Exchange rates from the £ to various other currencies

And many others,

I have also seen some very balanced comments, but to my fellow citizens in the UK I say this.

By and large what you would pay £ 1.00 for in the UK you would pay $ 1.00 for in the USA at the current exchange rate of $ 1.65 to the £

If you do not believe me

Check out : An Apple i phone
A Range Rover
An hotel Room
A Burberry Bag
Any Camera you choose

As I said, you are the consumers, you are the ultimate decision maker on what you buy, we respect that, we hope you buy ILFORD Photo products, we believe we offer a quality range of products second to none at a competitive price around the world.

We thank all of you who buy, use and value ILFORD Photo products.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

By and large what you would pay £ 1.00 for in the UK you would pay $ 1.00 for in the USA at the current exchange rate of $ 1.65 to the £

If you do not believe me

Check out : An Apple i phone
A Range Rover
An hotel Room
A Burberry Bag
Any Camera you choose

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So what you are saying is that because in the UK we are mug enough to stand for it we can cop for it and that as everyone else rips us off so the distribution channel in the UK will rip us off as well?

RR

If it is any consolation to my UK friends .....

We in Canada pay way more for Ilford products than the people in the US pay to their online sellers and large New York based stores.

If, however, we shop at smaller retailers in the US, the prices are just slightly lower than we pay here.

I would hazard a guess that the margins enjoyed by the big US sellers would not sustain any smaller operations.

And the US distributor probably gives a bulk discount to the big US sellers as well.

Regular Rod said:

So what you are saying is that because in the UK we are mug enough to stand for it we can cop for it and that as everyone else rips us off so the distribution channel in the UK will rip us off as well?

RR

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If you want a range rover and your local dealer is dick turpin you used to take the train and ferry to Dublin and get one there, the saving was a bit larger than the ferry fare.
If they speak resonable English and do plastic cards money in your pocket.
The only problem with the US would be the steering wheel...

Simon R Galley said:

Dear All,


We have a worldwide pricing policy ( ex factory ) that should not disadvantage any market over another, but we do not directly control the prices that our products are sold at, indeed in many countries ( including the EU ) it would be illegal for us to do so under the consumer protection laws that we as a responsible company respect and uphold.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

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My understanding of what I believe to be a key statement in your extensive reply Simon is that your ex factory prices are by and large the same the world over so we have to look to non-Ilford causes for the price differences.

We have of course a difference in VAT rate vis a vis U.S. sales tax which works against U.K. consumers but I think you are saying that say Firstcall( retailer) in the U.K. pays the same ex-factory price as say B&H or Freestyle in the U.S or is the ex-factory price for B&H lower simply due to its volume purchases compared to say Firstcall? If this is the case and we won't know until you choose to confirm or deny my assumption then this too will legitimately work against the U.K consumer. Of course you could choose to neither confirm or deny if volume purchases have any effect as Ilford does not consider it to be my business.

Frankly, key to all of this in order to give a full and final settlement of this longstanding, controversial and at times heated debate on APUG would be the equivalent of the Parliamentary Select Committee into Ilford's U.S. v U.K. prices where representatives of a company ( Ilford in this case) give full and frank answers which fully explain the differences and it becomes plain to all what the truth is.

I don't wish to appear to be conspiracy minded but as things stand, based on your reply, it does rather look as if we need to turn our attention to our retailers in terms of their profit demands and it rather suggests that our U.K. retailers choose to make a larger profit on Ilford products than do their U.S. equivalents.

I know I have raised this before but while there have been good reasons why we in the U.K. have to accept price rises in Ilford products over the last few years I have serious concern over the increases in Postcard paper price which has exceeded by a large margin, increases in other paper products and frankly stands at a massive premium here in the U.K.

It would appear unlikely that the disproportionate increase in Postcard paper price can be laid at the door of Ilford so has to be lain at the door of our retailers who if they are responsible are in danger of killing the "goose that lays the golden egg". Like most here there are few, if any, Ilford products that I would choose to say I have bought my last but at over £46 for a box I can say it about this product.

A great pity.

pentaxuser