For UK Ilford users

Athiril said:

Have you tried macodirect.de? Pretty good prices on B&W.

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I have bought from them in the past, before the last price update. Still OK for film, I suppose, but for me, Ag-photographic is the way to go for paper now. GBP 109 vs. EUR 178,50 for a 50-pack of MGIVFBWT 30x40/12x16, well, despite higher shipping costs, Matt saves me money.

Adrian Twiss said:

I bought 50 rolls of Verichrome Pan from B&H in 2000. A large proportion are still in my freezer and work just fine.

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Lucky you Adrian, by the time I found out about VP being available at Silverprint some years ago, it was all sold out.

So let me get this right. Kodak manufactures in the USA and sells its product at home cheaper than abroad. Ilford manufactures in the UK and sells its product at a higher price at home than in the states..In fact then it's much cheaper to source all film in the US. Why? How can it be cheaper to buy something abroad, re-import it, pay tax and transport and it still be less expensive than popping down the road for it?

David Hatton said:

So let me get this right. Kodak manufactures in the USA and sells its product at home cheaper than abroad. Ilford manufactures in the UK and sells its product at a higher price at home than in the states..In fact then it's much cheaper to source all film in the US. Why? How can it be cheaper to buy something abroad, re-import it, pay tax and transport and it still be less expensive than popping down the road for it?

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The same reason that snow boards made in Australia are twice as expensive "Wholesale" in Australia than wholesale+sending to U.S.+retailer markup+$100 shipping back to Australia... same with car parts made here.

Organised crime. (Just not by the mob)

Price fixing and gouging is illegal, but rife in Australia.

Over here a single roll of Provia 400X will cost you $35-$45.


This is bad for film.

Keith Tapscott. said:

Lucky you Adrian, by the time I found out about VP being available at Silverprint some years ago, it was all sold out.

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That's why I shipped it in from America. I ordered 10 Rolls initially from Silverprint but they sent me 10 rolls of Techpan by mistake. When I tried to correct it they said they were sold out.

As an extension to my comparison of prices for film in the UK and US I did the same comparison for paper. Sadly it still does not make economic sense to buy paper from the states as the shipping costs are so high. Base prices are

Freestyle (£) AG (£)
Fomabrom III 16x12 50 sheets 61.99 62.50
Adox Variotone 16x12 25 sheets 49.59 50.74
Adox MCC 16x12 50 sheets 84.30 99.90

Now even though the MCC is £15 dearer it would cost you nearly £92 to ship that little lot over from the US. Of course, with paper buying in bulk does not help due to the weight. And the US prices are before VAT and import duty are applied. You've got to love HMRC.

Over here a single roll of Provia 400X will cost you $35-$45.

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Excluding 20% VAT, a roll of 400x is 5.93 GBP from Ag Photographic or approx 9.5 AUD.

Tom

David Hatton said:

So let me get this right. Kodak manufactures in the USA and sells its product at home cheaper than abroad. Ilford manufactures in the UK and sells its product at a higher price at home than in the states..In fact then it's much cheaper to source all film in the US. Why? How can it be cheaper to buy something abroad, re-import it, pay tax and transport and it still be less expensive than popping down the road for it?

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The short answer David is that I don't have the faintest idea. However the cynic in me may suggest that as there are more US photographers than UK (and possibly European) Ilford don't want to piss off the majority user community. Am I right in thinking Harman are still strangely silent on this issue?

David Hatton said:

So let me get this right. Kodak manufactures in the USA and sells its product at home cheaper than abroad. Ilford manufactures in the UK and sells its product at a higher price at home than in the states..In fact then it's much cheaper to source all film in the US. Why? How can it be cheaper to buy something abroad, re-import it, pay tax and transport and it still be less expensive than popping down the road for it?

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It's the same with a whole raft of products, has been for years.

Camera manufacturers give their models different names in the US to the rest of the world to try and prevent Grey imports.

But it is crazy that Ilford films made in the UK are half the price in the US in comparison, and that's discounted UK prices as well.

Ian

I have just had a look at the Harman Express web site and they show HP5+ in 5x4 at £44 for 25 sheets.

Adrian Twiss said:

As an extension to my comparison of prices for film in the UK and US I did the same comparison for paper.

Sadly it still does not make economic sense to buy paper from the states as the shipping costs are so high. Base prices are

Freestyle (£) AG (£)
Fomabrom III 16x12 50 sheets 61.99 62.50
Adox Variotone 16x12 25 sheets 49.59 50.74
Adox MCC 16x12 50 sheets 84.30 99.90

Now even though the MCC is £15 dearer it would cost you nearly £92 to ship that little lot over from the US. Of course, with paper buying in bulk does not help due to the weight. And the US prices are before VAT and import duty are applied. You've got to love HMRC.

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Oh well, never mind. I have received my order for Kentmere Fineprint VC today and I will order some Fomabrom 111 FB next to see which I prefer. I like papers that are neutral rather than warm and I will be supporting the UK retailers like Ag-Photographic and Silverprint.

Adrian Twiss said:

The short answer David is that I don't have the faintest idea. However the cynic in me may suggest that as there are more US photographers than UK (and possibly European) Ilford don't want to piss off the majority user community. Am I right in thinking Harman are still strangely silent on this issue?

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Someone on another site who had been to Focus on Imaging in Birmingham U.K. said that Simon Galley was "in good form" on the Harman stand so it is understandable if he hasn't seen this thread yet, given where he has been but given how much response/complaints it has generated in a very short time on a site which has a predominantly U.S. membership, he will not remain silent once he has seen how much we are "exercised" by the issue.

To Ian Grant: Thanks for starting this thread and by the way I have just done a survey on 120 TMax 400 v D400 and of 12 suppliers, 11 of whom are U.K. based and one in Germany, only one sells D400 cheaper. In some cases the difference is as large as 70p per film.

There might of course be a Kodak price increase just round the corner but it would have to be substantial to wipe-out this kind of price difference.

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

Someone on another site who had been to Focus on Imaging in Birmingham U.K. said that Simon Galley was "in good form" on the Harman stand so it is understandable if he hasn't seen this thread yet, given where he has been but given how much response/complaints it has generated in a very short time on a site which has a predominantly U.S. membership, he will not remain silent once he has seen how much we are "exercised" by the issue.

To Ian Grant: Thanks for starting this thread and by the way I have just done a survey on 120 TMax 400 v D400 and of 12 suppliers, 11 of whom are U.K. based and one in Germany, only one sells D400 cheaper. In some cases the difference is as large as 70p per film.

There might of course be a Kodak price increase just round the corner but it would have to be substantial to wipe-out this kind of price difference.

pentaxuser

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T-Max 400 will most likely replace both FP4 Plus and HP5 Plus for me.

Keith Tapscott. said:

T-Max 400 will most likely replace both FP4 Plus and HP5 Plus for me.

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Not sure why, it's usually more expensive.

Having said that I'd use Delta 400 if it was available in LF sizes.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

Not sure why, it's usually more expensive.

Having said that I'd use Delta 400 if it was available in LF sizes.

Ian

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Delta films are popular, but I never liked them much. They were just not my cup of tea. It was always FP4 and HP5 for me.

Ian Grant said:

Anyone else interested in a large bulk purchase of Ilford films (and paper) from the US.

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Ian, I would be interested in this, but (in my case) I'm not sure if the economics stack up. I'm a low volume user of MGIV RC and MGWT FB. If we went ahead, my component would only represent a very small part of the total order. The high volume users would be subsidising me in effect. But, FWIW - count me in. B.

Hi,
If the european component, including Britain, is too small to warrant a discount equal to our U.S. cousins then aren't we also too small to effect the bottom line in total? It just doesn't make any kind of sense to me...and doesn't really engender loyalty either. Won't it also distort their sales figures? If we all import from the USA won't the figures show an increase in U.S. sales and a decrease in UK/European sales AND our purchases improve profits of U.S. companies such as USPS. UPS, FEDEX etc..?
sheesh

Unfortunately, it's not a case of wanting to change to alternative brands and products, for some of us it's a case of having to find alternatives.
Ilford products have become too expensive in the UK. I hope that Simon Galley will respond and explain the situation.

Vilk said:

Well, it's been like that in Canada for longer than I care to remember. Off the top of my head, b&w film, brand-name filters and Domke bags are more than double the B&H price on Toronto street.

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This is the case here too, at least for film. No local retail shop matches B&H's price (or Freestyle or Adorama), especially for film. (For the few remaining places you can actually find film.) The local Calumet comes closest. I could buy some of the film I use at the shop that does my roll-film C-41, but they charge 50-100 percent more than mail order. Somewhat oddly, on Ilford paper they're a little better.

I suggest that the prices charged for Ilford films in different markets reflect what each market will bear. Presumably, in order to sell in the US Ilford have to set prices lower than in the UK.
I am sceptical about the value of sourcing film from the US. In addition to import taxes the Post Office charge a handling fee.

Dear All,

I have read this thread and am happy to reply:

We at HARMAN technology make quality photo products, we also believe that our products are priced fairly and offer value for money all over the world. With the internet it is very easy to compare pricing around the world from the comfort of your own home. The difficulty and complexity of worldwide pricing are the factors that can and do build in differentials. The question to ask always is 'are you comparing apples with apples'?

I have seen some reference to some of these factors in the thread :

A) Changes in currency exchange rates

B) Cost and complexity of shipping : intercontinental / refrigerated / inter country and local ( who pays for what ?)

C) Import duties

D) National taxes and especially local / national sales taxes

E) Market specific products to meet local legislation

F) Market place practice ?

Example : In the USA historically, Tri-X was always sold by KODAK at a lower price than PLUS X : When we started exporting to the USA many years ago our HP and FP products obviously reflected that differential, it still exists to this day, in every other market in the world we sell HP and FP at the same price, hence the result 'a differential' on a local market anomaly.

What we can and do is to set prices ex.factory that are fair and equatable, if we were to try and 'adjust' pricing in each market so that no differentials existed we would need to change our prices every week, this is not practicle on over 2,000 products, nor would our distributors and resellers welcome having to adjust prices on their systems every week, as all price changes involve significant resource, database adjustments, websites etc, etc.

Just after a price increase, like we have just had, you may have some markets that sell through stock at the price related to what the stock was purchased at ( pre-increase ) and some who apply the increases as soon as they are notified. When prices are changed it also is the time that you would have the opportunity to correct some previous inherited differentials that had occurred.

Most important of all you cannot control the margins that distributors and resellers have to apply to to our products, and in most markets it is illegal to do so. Legislation rightly exists in most markets to protect competition on the sales of goods to ensure that the consumer gets the best value.

We are keenly aware that the ultimate sanction of any consumer is to choose whether to purchase a product from company A or company B and that is based on a raft of criteria where value for money is almost always taken into account, we are also aware that the internet and specialist suppliers have opened up routes where product flows from one country to another again that choice is open to the consumer.

People made reference to cameras and other products, our industry is not alone and of course we now live in a global market place. I am pretty sure that many American readers of this did not pay $ 9.72 per gallon when they filled up their car this morning as I did, ( our gallon is a little bigger ) and I am sure we have some Icelandic Apuggers and I am pretty sure he is paying three times what I will for a beer on the way home tonight.

We do realise how important this issue is, and we most certainly care when our customers are unhappy just as much as when they are happy. We always realise you have a choice, we always listen, we hopefully engage, and we try the very best to maintain and grow our reputation.


Simon Galley ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology LImited :

That helps put things into perspective, especially the analogy of gasoline prices. We can all relate to that.

There’s too much bashing of film and paper makers. They’re just as susceptible to the many influences on prices as we users of these products and neither the makers nor we consumers have any control of them.

I, like many users, am very appreciative of the great products made by Ilford and the other makers.

Thank you for replying Simon, I appreciate you've been busy at Focus on Imaging.

I think many of us would like to see a fairer more transparent and level playing field with regards to UK/US prices, while I appreciate that exchange rates, prices rises come into play the fact that some films (LF) can be bought in the US for 47% of the UK price is just not explained by UK taxes and the other factors.

There's something very wrong when it's far cheaper for us (in the UK) to re-import an Ilford product from abroad, pay Import duty, shipping as well as the VAT on top of everything as well. I think many of us would appreciate it if you could raise these issues with the rest of the Ilford management team (Board of Directors). I'm told there's an even more vociferous discussions on this issue (UK prices)on a British forum.

Personally I'm just asking for fairer treatment for UK and other European photographers, I can and do buy from the US, Germany, Norway, but usually when products haven't been available in the UK.

The current situation gives serious UK users of Ilford film (& paper) three options pay over the odds and in many cases cut back on usage, buy from abroad where money goes a lot further so you can save cash or buy more, or as the threads on the other Forum indicate many are just switching brand.

Having returned back to using Ilford films around 2007 after a 21 dalliance with Agfa APX100 & Kodak Tmax I've no immediate intention of switching again. I'd like to support the UK suppliers I've been using but with the current price differentials I'd be an idiot not to order from the US.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

Anyone else interested in a large bulk purchase of Ilford films (and paper) from the US.Ian

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I would be good for 100 sheets of HP5 and 100 sheets of FP4.

Adrian Twiss said:

I would be good for 100 sheets of HP5 and 100 sheets of FP4.

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I'll be in touch

Ian

I have been using Ilford products for most of my photographic life, but,sadly, once my stock of HP5+ is gone I will, along with many others in the U.K., will be switching brands, Simons explanation does nothing to allay my anger at the fact that I am paying almost twice as much for Ilford products in the UK as opposed to the US, and I will not be purchasing any more Harman products, film,paper or chemistry, there are alternatives that are just as good and will give me the results I want,so sorry Harman but it's goodbye for good,I will not be returning,and I suspect many more over here feel the same,Richard