Fomapan R 100 reversal with D19 anyone?

Anon Ymous · Oct 24, 2020

Hi

I've got some Fomapan R 100 to try and I've noticed that the Foma reversal kit uses the same developer as first and second developer. A quick look at the MSDS doesn't show any thiocyanate in the developer, a rather interesting fact. So, I'd like to process this film in D19, which might be a reasonable substitute for Fomadon LQR. Has anyone tried this combination and if so, what development time did you use? What would be the optimal exposure index?

As always, thanks in advance.

richyd · Oct 24, 2020

In Resources you will exactly what you are looking for : https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/fompan-r100-reversal-first-developer.227/

In my notes I see that I used a development time of 8 min at 20C against the listed time by the poster of 5m @27C. I think I only did that one roll. though, but you have a good staring point there.

DeletedAcct1 · Oct 24, 2020

Anon Ymous said:
Hi

I've got some Fomapan R 100 to try and I've noticed that the Foma reversal kit uses the same developer as first and second developer. A quick look at the MSDS doesn't show any thiocyanate in the developer, a rather interesting fact. So, I'd like to process this film in D19, which might be a reasonable substitute for Fomadon LQN. Has anyone tried this combination and if so, what development time did you use? What would be the optimal exposure index?

As always, thanks in advance.

Foma lists Fomadon LQR as a D-19 substitute. The R100 is said to be developed for 10 minutes in it.
https://www.foma.cz/en/fomapan-R-100

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 25, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
Foma lists Fomadon LQR as a D-19 substitute. The R100 is said to be developed for 10 minutes in it.
https://www.foma.cz/en/fomapan-R-100

DMax is around 2.75 as per this data sheet. That's a bit low for a film optimized for reversal processing.

koraks · Oct 25, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
DMax is around 2.75 as per this data sheet. That's a bit low for a film optimized for reversal processing.

Is it really optimized for reversal processing? I thought it was just the regular fomapan 100 emulsion, maybe coated onto a different base? The fomapan 100 datasheets suggests a similar dmax.

DeletedAcct1 · Oct 25, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
DMax is around 2.75 as per this data sheet. That's a bit low for a film optimized for reversal processing.

Those dr5.com stellar DMax figures are meaningless. We have discussed it before. The human eye can't discern DMax higher than 2,4* so why bother?

*as per Grant-Haist book

mohmad khatab · Oct 25, 2020

.
My respected greek friend ,,,
You know very well how much I love and respect the people of Greece.
This set of Fuma chemistry, maybe based on sodium thiosulfate instead of potassium thiocyanate, I say maybe, and this is really an option and you can get results that are absolutely OK, but they are not optimal results.
I once read a paper that says:
First: Thiocyanate's ability to comprehensively develop emulsion is unique and is better thansodium thiosulfate .
Second: The ability of permanganate for deep whitening is better than the ability of any other bleaching solution, whether (dichromate, or copper sulfate) ,,
I advise you to follow my personal experience .. Leave the Fuma recipe, it is not suitable for you, trust me.
- This file was sent to me by dear brother (Raghu) the Indian, may God bless you, and this recipe has caused me a wide fame in Egypt now,
These are some of the results of this recipe.
The first and second pictures, Ukrainian Astrom ISO 200 ortho film with dichromate bleach.
Third image: Ilford Pan 100 film with permanganate.
You can notice the difference.
Note: The re-exposure step was done according to your advice (or maybe another colleague's advice that I don't remember) and is the prescription for the re-exposure solution (Fuji) ,,

Reversal solution
Calgon 3.0 g
Stannous chloride dihydrate 1.0 g
p-aminophenol 0.1 g
Sodium hydroxide 8 g
Glacial acetic acid 15 mL
Water to make 1,000 mL pH 6.00

DeletedAcct1 · Oct 25, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
.
My respected greek friend ,,,
You know very well how much I love and respect the people of Greece.
This set of Fuma chemistry, maybe based on sodium thiosulfate instead of potassium thiocyanate, I say maybe, and this is really an option and you can get results that are absolutely OK, but they are not optimal results.
I once read a paper that says:
First: Thiocyanate's ability to comprehensively develop emulsion is unique and is better than Sodium Thiocyanate.
Second: The ability of permanganate for deep whitening is better than the ability of any other bleaching solution, whether (dichromate, or copper sulfate) ,,
I advise you to follow my personal experience .. Leave the Fuma recipe, it is not suitable for you, trust me.
- This file was sent to me by dear brother (Raghu) the Indian, may God bless you, and this recipe has caused me a wide fame in Egypt now,
These are some of the results of this recipe.
The first and second pictures, Ukrainian Astrom ISO 200 ortho film with dichromate bleach.
Third image: Ilford Pan 100 film with permanganate.
You can notice the difference.

You'd better not using thiocyanate before a permanganic acid bleach, as per Kodak bulletin.
The Foma kit first developer possibly does not contain any silver halide solvent.
There's no discernable difference between thiocyanate and thiosulfate except that the latter doesn't keep very well in solution (that's the reason it is not used in commercial kits) and it is more difficult to calibrate the exact amount needed.

DeletedAcct1 · Oct 25, 2020

koraks said:
Is it really optimized for reversal processing? I thought it was just the regular fomapan 100 emulsion, maybe coated onto a different base? The fomapan 100 datasheets suggests a similar dmax.

The Fomapan R 100 has an additional layer based on silver, probably an AHU layer, that is removed during the bleach stage (thus the extended 8 min bleaching step). Infact you can't develop the Fomapan R 100 as a negative.

mohmad khatab · Oct 25, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
You'd better not using thiocyanate before a permanganic acid bleach, as per Kodak bulletin.
The Foma kit first developer possibly does not contain any silver halide solvent.
There's no discernable difference between thiocyanate and thiosulfate except that the latter doen't keep very well in solution (that's the reason it is not used in commercial kits) and it is more difficult to calibrate the exact amount needed.

Kodak has nothing to do with that recipe now ,,
We are under no obligation to adhere to the Kodak guidelines at the time when we use the recipe from the Agfa School.

No problem at all ,, you can use a cleaning solution for a minute before using permanganate (I do that ,,
- With regard to the issue that permanganate is of unknown quantity, this is very old and repeated talk, you lack research and diligence, my dear ,,
Review this document and you will know that you did not make the necessary effort to search.
Agfa patent EP1006408B1
20g sodium hexametaphosphate
2g potassium permanganate
27ml sulfuric acid 20%
PH 1.4

This bleaching solution lived with me for three months (I kept it in a brown glass bottle and put it in the fridge), and it had the ability to bleach at least six rolls. And I disposed of it without justification. Only suspicion is what made me get rid of it ,, but I used it on the last roll and it was good ,, but the doubt made me prefer to get rid of it with my hands when it was effective instead of waiting for any surprises that might happen and be unpleasant ,,
- Just like a somewhat old soccer player, he thinks about retiring from playing while he is in good technical condition for fear that his technical level will fall suddenly and this will cause you a lot of embarrassment and perhaps this will cause the shaking of his position and history .
- Was I able to explain the situation accurately?

mohmad khatab · Oct 25, 2020

These images were bleached with permanganate according to the patent that I talked about previously, and the recipe of (ORWO) company that depends on thiocyanates was used.
I came with evidence that the use of thiocyanate can be reliable and at the same time, permanganate can be used.
These are pictures made that way, I'm not kidding, nor do I invent words out of my head without evidence,
No person, regardless of his experience, has the right to divorce Muslim women, as if they are laws that cannot be questioned.
Research and development is guaranteed to all ,,
Nobody has the right to assume that they possess the blatant truth.
This is nonsense .

DeletedAcct1 · Oct 25, 2020

Those pictures have "closed"* shadows and blown up highlights, regardless of how they were obtained.

* without details

I insist to say that it's unsafe to use thiocyanate in first developer if the subsequent bleach is based on permanganate. Kodak says that and who am I to distrust Kodak?

DeletedAcct1 · Oct 25, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
- With regard to the issue that permanganate is of unknown quantity, this is very old and repeated talk, you lack research and diligence, my dear ,,
Review this document and you will know that you did not make the necessary effort to search.
Agfa patent EP1006408B1
20g sodium hexametaphosphate
2g potassium permanganate
27ml sulfuric acid 20%
PH 1.4

issue with permanganate?
where did I refer to that?
I was talking about thiocyanate.
You're wrong on that, sir.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 25, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
Those dr5.com stellar DMax figures are meaningless. We have discussed it before. The human eye can't discern DMax higher than 2,4* so why bother?

*as per Grant-Haist book

At least two people in this forum who have seen B&W slides with much higher DMax than Foma-R have confirmed that they were able to see details in the deepest shadows of such slides. Key thing is direct viewing of the slides and not the projection on screen.

mohmad khatab · Oct 25, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
At least two people in this forum who have seen B&W slides with much higher DMax than Foma-R have confirmed that they were able to see details in the deepest shadows of such slides. Key thing is direct viewing of the slides and not the projection on screen.

Yes, right, I agree with you, esteemed sir.
The positive image is created for projection, or seen with the naked eye.
You don't know that the shadows have no details. I didn't see the image with your eyes.
In addition, this film has expired since 2009 and is basically a film that was manufactured by Ilford in order to record car violations that exceed the legal speed by highways and that shipment of films was the property of the government of Sudan, and Egyptian photographers have obtained it illegally, During their revolution that toppled their president, and the acts of plunder and plunder, etc., (this does not matter) ,,
Also, the girl who took these pictures did not use Light Meter and was using only her feelings, and she is my intern.
- Also those pictures were scanned by a foolish man who works as a technician on a Noritsu scanner and does not know how to deal with the positive film ,, so he made a scan for this roller and the result was negative and we used Photoshop to reverse the image until it is positive

Finally: We did not invent a recipe out of our imagination ,,
This is an official recipe used by the company (Filmotec) that currently owns the trademark (ORWO). A number of short films and short documentaries have been produced according to this format. You can refer to the company’s website to see some of the links that will refer you to some of those artworks.

Some pictures are attached, but with Astrom film.
And the bleach was dichromate.

DeletedAcct1 · Oct 25, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
At least two people in this forum who have seen B&W slides with much higher DMax than Foma-R have confirmed that they were able to see details in the deepest shadows of such slides. Key thing is direct viewing of the slides and not the projection on screen.

direct viewing is not what slides are for!

DeletedAcct1 · Oct 25, 2020

mohmad khatab said:
This is an official recipe used by the company (Filmotec) that currently owns the trademark (ORWO).

Yes, but for use with Orwo materials (UN54)

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 25, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
direct viewing is not what slides are for!

If you're talking about 35mm slides, I can understand. But what about 4x5 or 8x10 slides or even medium format 6x9 slides?

DeletedAcct1 · Oct 25, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
If you're talking about 35mm slides, I can understand. But what about 4x5 or 8x10 slides or even medium format 6x9 slides?

There are no 8x10 or even 4x5 projectors.
The slides, even medium format ones, are meant to be projected.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 25, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
There are no 8x10 or even 4x5 projectors.
The slides, even medium format ones, are meant to be projected.

There is always a light table for viewing larger format slides. BTW dr5 does process sheet film.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 25, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
The Fomapan R 100 has an additional layer based on silver, probably an AHU layer, that is removed during the bleach stage (thus the extended 8 min bleaching step). Infact you can't develop the Fomapan R 100 as a negative.

Even C41 films have a silver layer which gets removed during the bleach stage, but we know that such films can be developed nicely as B&W negatives thanks to @David Lyga's method. It should be possible to develop Fomapan-R as negative using a similar method albeit with some loss of speed.

DeletedAcct1 · Oct 25, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Even C41 films have a silver layer which gets removed during the bleach stage, but we know that such films can be developed nicely as B&W negatives thanks to @David Lyga's method. It should be possible to develop Fomapan-R as negative using a similar method albeit with some loss of speed.

Are you referring to the ECN process and the rem jet layer?
C41 films have silver in it, that is developed in the developer and then removed later in the bleach, but nothing has to do with Fomapan 100 R structure.

koraks · Oct 25, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
There are no 8x10 or even 4x5 projectors.

Oh yes, 4x5 for sure. Rare as hen's teeth of course. But they are out there alright.
Besides, how anyone wants to view their images is up to them. Nothing wrong with, say, mounting 4x5, 5x7 or 8x10 in a backlit frame for instance.

DeletedAcct1 · Oct 25, 2020

koraks said:
Besides, how anyone wants to view their images is up to them. Nothing wrong with, say, mounting 4x5, 5x7 or 8x10 in a backlit frame for instance.

Of course but it reflects in how you develop the film (B&w slide)

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 25, 2020

Alessandro Serrao said:
Are you referring to the ECN process and the rem jet layer?
C41 films have silver in it, that is developed in the developer and then removed later in the bleach, but nothing has to do with Fomapan 100 R structure.

No, I'm referring to C41 films that have Carey-Lea colloidal silver layer. These include most color films and also BW400CN but not XP2 Super. The link I shared has David discussing his method of getting nice negatives from C41 film. It involves removing the Carey Lea layer. I don't see why it's not applicable to Foma-R.

Fomapan R 100 reversal with D19 anyone?

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