Folding camera options

M-88 · Oct 23, 2019

Hello all

I've been doing a research on medium format folding cameras and found that cheaper ones have (obviously) poor selection of shutter speeds. Most troubling for me is 1/250 min. speed which is abysmal in my opinion, especially considering that these folders usually don't incorporate filter threads and one would be forced to use proprietary snap-on filters, to use ND on cameras. So far I have found only a few affordable folding cameras, which are:

Voigtlander Perkeo (with Color Skopar lens and better shutter). This one is undoubtedly a gem, being the smallest 6x6 folder out there.
Mamiya 6. These come with true, coupled rangefinders and sometimes are able to do 6x4.5 exposures in addition to standard 6x6.
Zeiss Ikon Ikonta. Not exactly cheap, or to my liking, but still, it's Zeiss and all.

The question is: am I missing some decent models with fast shutters, or it's common for folders to have slow speeds simply because there were no fast films and fast lenses available? I even saw one Balda camera with f/2.9 lens which had 1/200 or 1/250 max. speed.

Thank you!

Ko.Fe. · Oct 23, 2019

I had couple of Perkeo and one Balda. If I have to choose again - Balda.
I liked small Nettar 515 the most. For use and results.
I have to make all of them (not just these three) works again, BTW.
High speed in those shutters is not something pleasing to engage. Second spring is in use.

M-88 · Oct 23, 2019

Ko.Fe. said:
I liked small Nettar 515 the most. For use and results.

They usually come with Novar-Anastigmat lenses, don't they? Are they adequate?

Ko.Fe. said:
High speed in those shutters is not something pleasing to engage. Second spring is in use.

I'm guessing that it's something bad to service? Then how does one use, let's say, Portra 400 on sunny day? (not to mention attaining any kind of shallow DOF in the pricess)

macfred · Oct 23, 2019

M-88 said:
They usually come with Novar-Anastigmat lenses, don't they? Are they adequate?

They are - this is with the Novar 3.5/75mm on a Super Ikonta III - 531/16 - stopped down to f/11 I guess

--

M-88 said:
... Then how does one use, let's say, Portra 400 on sunny day? ...

This was with Portra 400 on a bright day

Alan9940 · Oct 23, 2019

I tried a couple of Perkeo II's, but had to send 'em back because of the fiddly and, often, unreliable shutter lockout mechanism. I know others have never had an issue here...I guess I was just unlucky. Anyway, wound up with an Agfa Isolette III, a Zeiss Super Ikonta III, and a Zeiss Mess Ikonta (6x9). I finally sold off the Agfa--great camera, though--because I didn't need two 6x6 folders and preferred the coupled rangefinder of the Zeiss Super Ikonta. I've measured the shutter speeds on both of my Zeiss folders, and they're pretty much dead on, with the fastest speeds being just a touch slow. I don't use the higher shutter speeds so it's never been an issue for me. In general, though, I think you'll find that these older shutters don't do the high speeds so well. For example, my 190mm Kodak Wide Field Ektar in Ilex shutter that I use for 8x10 is dead on up to 1/100 sec, at which point the speeds get slower as you go up. The fastest speed is about 1.5 stops slow; and this was after a CLA by Carol of Flutot's Camera Repair.

M-88 · Oct 23, 2019

macfred said:
They are - this is with the Novar 3.5/75mm on a Super Ikonta III - 531/16 - stopped down to f/11 I guess

This was with Portra 400 on a bright day

Those look amazing! And it's got a good shutter which goes up to 1/500 if I recall correctly. But still, have to ask: did you ever need to use a Neutral Density filter and if so, then what did you do?

Alan9940 said:
I tried a couple of Perkeo II's, but had to send 'em back because of the fiddly and, often, unreliable shutter lockout mechanism. I know others have never had an issue here...I guess I was just unlucky. Anyway, wound up with an Agfa Isolette III, a Zeiss Super Ikonta III, and a Zeiss Mess Ikonta (6x9). I finally sold off the Agfa--great camera, though--because I didn't need two 6x6 folders and preferred the coupled rangefinder of the Zeiss Super Ikonta. I've measured the shutter speeds on both of my Zeiss folders, and they're pretty much dead on, with the fastest speeds being just a touch slow. I don't use the higher shutter speeds so it's never been an issue for me. In general, though, I think you'll find that these older shutters don't do the high speeds so well. For example, my 190mm Kodak Wide Field Ektar in Ilex shutter that I use for 8x10 is dead on up to 1/100 sec, at which point the speeds get slower as you go up. The fastest speed is about 1.5 stops slow; and this was after a CLA by Carol of Flutot's Camera Repair.

I guess fast speeds are problematic on most leaf shutters. I have Olympus 35RC and even its shutter doesn't give 1/500, but something around 1/300-ish instead. Copal-SV on the other hand, which I have on Yashica 124, performs adequately on all speeds above 1/30. HOWEVER 1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/15 all fire at 1/30 as well.
And Agfas... I simply couldn't find a decent, likeable in my opinion, model. I have Karat 4.5, but it's 35 mm with rather fiddly cartridges.

abruzzi · Oct 23, 2019

At best your only going to get one stop past 1/250. The easiest solution may be to shoot a faster film. When I was looking, I found that a lot of folders were available with multiple shutters. Usually, the faster shutters were paired with the better lenses.

My old Voigtlander Bessa I has a 1/400 shutter. I suspect the later Bessas has at least a 1/400.

M-88 · Oct 23, 2019

abruzzi said:
At best your only going to get one stop past 1/250. The easiest solution may be to shoot a faster film. When I was looking, I found that a lot of folders were available with multiple shutters. Usually, the faster shutters were paired with the better lenses.

My old Voigtlander Bessa I has a 1/400 shutter. I suspect the later Bessas has at least a 1/400.

So it is then pointless to pay more for higher end shutters, unless I want a better lens?

Bessas are good, hands down. But expensive as well.

macfred · Oct 23, 2019

M-88 said:
... And it's got a good shutter which goes up to 1/500 if I recall correctly. But still, have to ask: did you ever need to use a Neutral Density filter and if so, then what did you do? ...

Yes, shutter speed 1/500 - same ''problem'' with my FUJI GW670iii; FUJI GA645, Rolleiflex 3.5F ... I have and use ND filters with the Rolli and my FUJI's but not for/with the Super Ikonta (though I never missed one).
In Germany f/11 and 1/500 is great for sunny weather -
If you go close enough you can get a nice bokeh even with a stopped-down lens. I rarely shoot the Super Ikonta (wide) open - this is not what the Novar was build for I guess.

abruzzi · Oct 23, 2019

I’m just saying that is what I saw when I looked—three element lenses with 1/125 shutters, 4+ element lenses with 1/400 shutters. I’m sure there are plenty of exceptions to this, Voightlander was one, but it was common. And not all Bessas are expensive. I paid USD$100 for mine with a Voigtar and a Compur-Rapid 1/400 shutter.

macfred · Oct 23, 2019

The Perkeo I my father-in-law used was 1/300 with the Vaskar triplet (a more'' economic'' version compared to the Perkeo II with 1/500 and the Color Sopar.
Nevertheless - in the right hands the Perkeo I was a great tool. Two photograps my father in-law took a few decades ago :

M-88 · Oct 23, 2019

macfred said:
Yes, shutter speed 1/500 - same ''problem'' with my FUJI GW670iii; FUJI GA645, Rolleiflex 3.5F ... I have and use ND filters with the Rolli and my FUJI's but not for/with the Super Ikonta (though I never missed one).
In Germany f/11 and 1/500 is great for sunny weather -
If you go close enough you can get a nice bokeh even with a stopped-down lens. I rarely shoot the Super Ikonta (wide) open - this is not what the Novar was build for I guess.

Interesting. I thought relatively modern cameras would be more consistent. So much for Fuji... Seiko on my Bronica was as precise as my late grandmother's wrist watch, which was also Seiko. But electronically governed shutters should be precise after all.

Let's just say I often have to go as fast as 1/2000 at f/5.6 during Georgian summertime if I have ISO400 film. Therefore I try to avoid it altogether in daytime.

abruzzi said:
I’m just saying that is what I saw when I looked—three element lenses with 1/125 shutters, 4+ element lenses with 1/400 shutters. I’m sure there are plenty of exceptions to this, Voightlander was one, but it was common. And not all Bessas are expensive. I paid USD$100 for mine with a Voigtar and a Compur-Rapid 1/400 shutter.

But I agree, slow shutters are often paired with 3 element glass, whereas faster ones often have 4 element lenses. Or even better.

M-88 · Oct 23, 2019

macfred said:
The Perkeo I my father-in-law used was 1/300 with the Vaskar triplet (a more'' economic'' version compared to the Perkeo II with 1/500 and the Color Sopar.
Nevertheless - in the right hands the Perkeo I was a great tool. Two photograps my father in-law took a few decades ago :

View attachment 233353

View attachment 233354

These photos look ancient! Probably from the days when Perkeo was still modern eh? But yes, photos look outstanding. Perhaps it was stopped down to 11 or something.

macfred · Oct 23, 2019

M-88 said:
These photos look ancient! Probably from the days when Perkeo was still modern eh? But yes, photos look outstanding. Perhaps it was stopped down to 11 or something.

Yes, those were taken in the early 1950's - f/11 will be right. I remember he told me once that shooting wider than f/8 is imprudent ...

M-88 · Oct 23, 2019

He might have had a point. I rarely go wider than f/8 on my Yashica 124, which has a theoretically good Yashinon lens.

Saganich · Oct 23, 2019

Many of the AGFA Isolettes top out at 500.

Ko.Fe. · Oct 23, 2019

M-88 said:
They usually come with Novar-Anastigmat lenses, don't they? Are they adequate?

I'm guessing that it's something bad to service? Then how does one use, let's say, Portra 400 on sunny day? (not to mention attaining any kind of shallow DOF in the pricess)

Not so nice cameras for DIY service and with VF in the corner, plenty of parallax.

I was just using folders as they were used. Not so much of ISO 400 film back then. So, no 400ISO on bright days.

Nettar 515. TMAX400.

Bessa 66 with Skopar 75 3.5 and Moment yellow filter. Ilford 400 Delta. Rodinal 20min. January 2014. ON.

Bessa 66 Voigtlander with Skopar 75 3.5 lens. Aperture 5.6. Shanghai 100 film.

SalveSlog · Oct 23, 2019

M-88 said:
Hello all

...
The question is: am I missing some decent models with fast shutters, or it's common for folders to have slow speeds simply because there were no fast films and fast lenses available? I even saw one Balda camera with f/2.9 lens which had 1/200 or 1/250 max. speed.

Folders (or any cameras) in the 50ies simply were not buildt for film as fast as iso 400, I think? The fastest leaf shutter that I have from the 50ies is a Prestor on a Werra. That's 1/750. And that is a 35mm camera. Another thing with leaf shutters is that they deliver different speeds for i.e. f:2.8 and f:22! The reason is that the leafs takes time from closed to fully open and from fully open back to closed. This makes perfect (slide) exposure difficult with top speeds without knowing your shutters behaviour very well.

moto-uno · Oct 23, 2019

Not always suggested , but , the Iskra cameras had a 1/500 shutter speed and the lens on them is nothing short
of excellent . Having said that though , I know they come with a few uummm idiosyncrasies . Peter

reddesert · Oct 23, 2019

It's worth keeping in mind the conditions of photography when folding cameras were new: relatively slow films and for amateur users, contact prints or at best modest enlargements.

Only the top end (relatively) of folders come with a rangefinder. And medium format has longer focal length lenses with less depth of field for the same aperture. If you don't have an RF and are scale focusing, you need some DOF to cover your mistakes, especially if you want to make an enlargement. So you might want to stop down to f/8 or so to cover these ills. Plus folders are by nature a little less rigid than say a TLR, so using them at fast apertures requires good lens to film plane alignment.

There is a good reason why rangefinders, fast-ish lenses, and fast-ish shutter speeds went together and are only available on the higher-end folders. A cheap folder can be fun, but asking it to deliver crisp large enlargements wide open at f/4.5 (or whatever) on ISO 400 film at its top shutter speed, while guessing scale focus, is demanding something that it was not designed to do.

If you do want to use filters, a push-on Series V or VI filter holder, yellow filter (for B&W), and hood is a nice accessory to have.

John Koehrer · Oct 23, 2019

Many of these cameras need to be uncocked when setting the fastest speed to avoid screwing up the shutter.

macfred · Oct 23, 2019

reddesert said:
... yellow filter (for B&W), and hood is a nice accessory to have.

True ! I have a small collection original filters made for the Super Ikonta III 531/16 - those are build a little special ans some what hard to find
Those are marked with #353 S35.5. In the back a Kenko 32mm slip-in hood that fits the filters.

macfred · Oct 23, 2019

Did we mention the ISKRA series cameras by KMZ ?
A coupled - rangefinder with 1/500 FXCh-18 central leaf shutter and a tessar - design Industar-58 f/3.5 / 75mm.
I never used one but I saw various photographs in the epic Rangefinder forum thread ''Show a photograph taken with your folder''.
In GERMANY they go for around 100-140 EURO.

AndyH · Oct 23, 2019

Super Ikontas and Ikontas can often be found for under $200 if you are patient and search carefully. The shutters are fairly easy to adjust and clean, and you can easily cannibalize parts cameras sold in as is condition. My Super Ikonta is the only folder I own that gets really regular use, but I wouldn't like to lose it.

Andy

shutterfinger · Oct 23, 2019

SalveSlog said:
Folders (or any cameras) in the 50ies simply were not buildt for film as fast as iso 400, I think? The fastest leaf shutter that I have from the 50ies is a Prestor on a Werra. That's 1/750. And that is a 35mm camera. Another thing with leaf shutters is that they deliver different speeds for i.e. f:2.8 and f:22! The reason is that the leafs takes time from closed to fully open and from fully open back to closed. This makes perfect (slide) exposure difficult with top speeds without knowing your shutters behaviour very well.

I have serviced several leaf shutters and tested them. The average leaf shutter goes from full close to full open in .0003 seconds. The timing delay holds the shutter in full open for the specified time then the main spring forces the blades fully closed. During the time from full closed to full open or from full open to full closed the shutter leafs form a variable aperture that will stop down to 2 stops or more below taking aperture and have very little effect on total exposure.
Some test speeds at the edge of the smallest aperture on the lens and others optical center of the lens, the difference is less than 1/3 stop.
The physical size of the shutter also limits the top speed of the shutter. The shutters in TLR's and Folders are size 00 while 35mm are 000.

A 50mm lens at f8 on a 35mm camera focused at 15 feet has a dof from 10'7' to 25'10"; a 75mm on a 6x6 camera at f8 focused at 15 feet has a dof from 11'2" to 22'8". https://www.pointsinfocus.com/tools/depth-of-field-and-equivalent-lens-calculator/#{%22c%22:[{%22f%22:17,%22av%22:%228%22,%22fl%22:75,%22d%22:4572,%22cm%22:%220%22}],%22m%22:0}
Equivalent exposure of 1/2000 f5.6 is 1/500 f11 or 1/250 f16. Subject distance can be used to eliminate the extra dof of smaller apertures in some cases.

Folding camera options

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency