Folders with auto spacing

[abruzzi]

I just stumbled across a review of the Mamiya Six Automat, and discovered that while it has a red window, that’s not necessary, the advance mechanism is auto spaced, with a frame counter. I hadn’t heard of any folder that did that. Are there any others? Has anyone used the Mamiya? Can you comment on the reliability/accuracy of the advance mechanism?

 

[Paul Howell]

I have the Mamiya, the frame counter works, I sometimes use the red window as a double check, never had an issue.

 

[choiliefan]

My ancient Zeiss-Ikon Super Ikomat has auto spacing.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I've got a ca. 1948 vintage Zeiss-Ikon Super Ikonta B (532/16) that uses a red window on the 6x9 framing track (the only one they could be certain would be on 120 film when they designed this before the War) to start the count, but then runs a "turns counting" framing system. Originally, it would only shoot 11 on a roll, because the film was barely long enough for eight 6x9 exposures. Modern film (as well as being a little thicker, resulting in slightly inaccurate framing in turns counter cameras) is a few cm longer, so I modified the counter stop wheel with a 12th notch. I start at the second set of dots before the 1 on the backing, and get 12 on a roll.

There were several other Zeiss camera models (even ones without rangefinders) that had frame counters. Apparently it was a Zeiss "thing".

 

[MattKing]

Some of the auto-spacing cameras require you to wind the film until the first number is visible in the window, before you engage the auto spacing feature.
My Baby Bessa 66 is that way.

 

[BAC1967]

The Kodak Monitor has auto spacing.

 

[DWThomas]

My Voigtländer Perkeo II uses the red window to set the first frame, then auto-spaces.

 

[abruzzi]

Interesting. It sounds like it’s more common that I expected. Let me add a couple of additional limitations, since in the end this is about more than just curiosity, in the end I might want to acquire one of these cameras. So I’d want it to have a coupled rangefinder and use 120 film (since I’m not keen on respooling.). Both of those the Mamiya still fits. I believe the Zeiss Super Ikonta does too.

 

[Alex Varas]

Hapo-66 E, Iskra, Super Isolette are the 3 coming to my mind now

 

[DWThomas]

Interesting. It sounds like it’s more common that I expected. Let me add a couple of additional limitations, since in the end this is about more than just curiosity, in the end I might want to acquire one of these cameras. So I’d want it to have a coupled rangefinder and use 120 film (since I’m not keen on respooling.). Both of those the Mamiya still fits. I believe the Zeiss Super Ikonta does too.

Ah -- the Perkeo II does not have a rangefinder. In truth, as a Curmudgeonly Olde Farte I must admit to some skepticism about the added technology of rangefinders and auto-indexing, being it adds complexity and could be just another potential source of problems in mechanical beasties that are fifty/sixty/seventy years old. But only you can decide what the potential trade-offs are for your intended use. There was a later Perkeo III which had at least an uncoupled rangefinder.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I’d want it to have a coupled rangefinder and use 120 film (since I’m not keen on respooling.). Both of those the Mamiya still fits. I believe the Zeiss Super Ikonta does too.

All Super Ikonta models have coupled rangefinder; as far as I know, only the B versions have frame counters; originally, I believe, this was done because in tween-Wars Germany Zeiss couldn't count on their customers being able to get 120 film with a 6x6 framing track. All 120, ever, had 6x9 numbers, so they designed around that. The Super Ikonta A (6x4.5) has dual windows on the 6x9 track, as is common for early 6x4.5 cameras, and the C version (the prototype for the Moskva 3, 4, and 5, as well) used the original 6x9 (Moskva 5 had a 6x6 mask and alternative window on the 6x6 track, but was made from the mid-1950s when that was standard). Another (rather uncommon and fairly expensive) frame-counting 6x6 is the Suzuki Press Van -- the dual format, 6x6 and 35mm version had frame counting from a start mark (no red window offered or needed, and it switched to 36mm frame size in 35mm mode) and coupled RF.

In truth, as a Curmudgeonly Olde Farte I must admit to some skepticism about the added technology of rangefinders and auto-indexing, being it adds complexity and could be just another potential source of problems in mechanical beasties that are fifty/sixty/seventy years old.

A frame counter is much less complex, has fewer and more robust parts than a leaf shutter, and none of the parts need to operate in a few (tens of) milliseconds. Yet we have thousands of leaf shutters from a century ago that still work, within reason. As for RF, the oldest example I have is the Kalart on my Anniversary Speed Graphic, which I've been told is vintage ca. 1938 -- and not only does it still work, I was able to adjust it with just a set of precision screwdrivers to match the lens I mounted on the camera. That RF, the one in my Super Ikonta B (with its very functional frame counter), as well as all my 1950s to 1970s vintage 35mm RF cameras, and the ones on a couple Polaroids I own or have owned, have given no problems. Even in cameras where the leaf shutters don't work, for one reason or another.

I'm a lot less worried about shutters, frame counters, and rangefinders failing than I am about the electronics in more modern cameras.

 

[itsdoable]

The Agfa Super Isolette / Ansco Super Speedex / Iskra have coupled rangefinders with auto film indexing, all based on the same Agfa camera.

Certo Six add rapid wind and parallax correction, probably the most feature advanced era folder.

The red window was mostly for setting the position of the 1st frame.

The Perko III has a rangefinder, but it takes the place of the auto indexing mechanism, so it's red-window only.

Modern (& $$) options are Fuji GF670 & GS645, and Mamiya-6 (collapses with no door), but none of these have a red window.

 

[Alan9940]

I believe the Zeiss Super Ikonta does too.

Yep. My Zeiss Super Ikonta III has auto spacing, frame counter, and a coupled rangefinder.

 

[SalveSlog]

.. and the red window is used only for checking if there is film in the camera.

 

[abruzzi]

So Roberts had a Super Ikonta B 532/16, so I decided to try that one. (I know the 'B' indicates 6x6 and 'Super' indicates coupled rangefinder, but what do the numbers mean?) The only folder I have at the moment is a pre-war Voigtlander Bessa. I like the size, but I'd much rather have a coupled rangefinder (really bad at guessing distances) and the measured advance. I've missed markings on the Bessa.

 

[Donald Qualls]

The 532/16 is just Zeiss's model number. They started using numbers in that form as soon as the company was formed (1927) by the merger of Ica, Contessa-Nettel, Ernemann, and Goerz, and kept it up into the 1950s. Ica had been using a similar numbering scheme without the slash before the merger (I have a probably-1926 Ica 225 Ideal). Your 532/16 is the same model I have -- mine has an uncoated 80mm f/2.9 Tessar, and due to using the 6x9 number track to start the film counter, originally got 11 frames on a roll. I modified it to get 12, but there's the hazard of lapping the first frame over the tape or the last frame off the film tail if I don't start the right amount before the 1 in the red window.

Load like any other 120 camera, close the back, wind until you see 1 in the red window, then press the counter wheel down and turn it until it stops (at 1). From there on, you can ignore the red window, and after 11 frames the advance won't stop, you'll just wind off the tail and unload.

 

[xya]

I made a comparison chart here http://www.120folder.com/compa.htm. look for auto film advance. in most auto advance cameras you have to match the big arrow on the film leader to a mark in the camera. the most advanced is the iskra, it detects the beginning of the film itself.

 

[abruzzi]

thanks--thats a useful chart. I'd be hesitant about any camera with film sensing. I've seen a number of threads on Photrio about this or that film not triggering on a Rolleiflex. Lining the start mark is easy, and its what all my cameras use (except the old Bessa which is just red window. based alignment. It seems that a number of the folders with auto spacing use a third method of using the red window to align the first frame, then auto spacing the rest of the frames.

 

[MattKing]

I made a comparison chart here http://www.120folder.com/compa.htm. look for auto film advance. in most auto advance cameras you have to match the big arrow on the film leader to a mark in the camera. the most advanced is the iskra, it detects the beginning of the film itself.

Thanks for all the work you have done on this.
FWIW, there are two Bessa 66 cameras.
The one you have listed is the Basic model, which does rely on the red window. The Deluxe model starts by setting frame one with the red window and then uses a frame counter thereafter.

 

[abruzzi]

The 532/16 is just Zeiss's model number.

Yeah, it would help if there was a secret decoder, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I did see that "Super" seems to identify an integrated/coupled rangefinder. The rest of the full name doesn't tell me any more.

Since I have the 6x6 Zeiss on the way, I'm going to pass for now on a Mamiya Six Automat. Its always a bad idea to buy more than one camera at a time. However, this question has led me to another related quest. I'd love the smallest pocketable 120 roll camera that has as many of the "modern" features I prefer. Those modern features are a) coupled rangefinder and b) auto spacing. (and as stated 120 film only.) So this thought leads me to 6x4.5 folders. Right now the most tempting ones are the Konica Pearls. It looks like the III is smaller than the IV, and a LOT cheaper, though the IV seems a bit more refined (an old 120 folder with a bright line viewfinder!) I do a lot of "carry around" photography. Since the best camera is the one I have with me, I like to have a film camera on me at all times. Mostly that has been smaller 35mm cameras, and occasionally a TLR (Yashica-Mat 125G) or a Fuji GA645Zi. A 645 folder that doesn't require weird funky operational steps (and isn't oversized for the format like the Fujis) would make a great carry-around camera.

 

[Sam_PNW]

I have a Balda Super Baldax, the automatic frame spacing is problematic. I'm not sure if it's something that can be fixed or adjusted, but it's not reliable enough for me, so I use the red window instead.
Mine has 80mm f/2.9 Schneider Radionar lens in Prontor-SVS shutter.

 

[Alan9940]

I'd love the smallest pocketable 120 roll camera that has as many of the "modern" features I prefer.

Perkeo II?

 

[Donald Qualls]

If you don't mind cutting or paying too much for film, you might also consider 127.

There were a good number of 127 bed or strut folders (Foth Derby, for instance) with coupled RF from the late pre-War and early post-War period, before 35mm ate their lunch. A Bantam Special would be another contender, if you're cutting film anyway. If you cut to keep the 6x4.5 track, you can fit a full length 16 exposure roll onto either a 127 or (barely) 828 spool (Paterson reels will take 127 film, and 828 fits in any 35mm reel). That works very well for 4x4 and Bantam; for 4x6 on 127 you have to either cut the other side (to put the 6x6 track in the correct place) or spool the film backward (i.e. numbers counting down), and mask the gate a few millimeters to avoid overlapping frames (same for two-window 3x4 on 127, BTW). The 127 folders can be very small -- I have a 4x3 that's barely bigger than a minimal 35mm folder -- but the tiniest ones, of course, won't have an RF, coupled or not.

 

[xya]

@abruzzi: go for the pearl III, it's simply fantastic. smaller, lighter and less expensive than the IV. I had both and I kept the III. again, there is more information on my website http://www.120folder.com/

@Sam_PNW: I had the super baldax for years. no problem with spacing. it is important to set the counter to "1" after you advanced the film via the red window to "1" on the backing paper. if the numer "1" isn't already in the film counter window, hold the reset lever and make a counter-clock movement until it shows. resetting is important as the sophisticated mechanism has a compensation, according the turns to the film number, so spacing will always be correct.

 

[Sam_PNW]

There is probably something wrong with the counter on mine, then, as it doesn’t work consistently. Do you know if there is a service manual?