Flash not firing on Minolta X-570.

[Minolta93]

Hi all,

I have a Minolta X-570 in good condition (for the most part). I've ran a few rolls through it and everything works with some very minor light leaks I'll patch up in the future.
However, the flash unit I have doesn't work with the camera. I have a Minolta 360PX flash unit. The flash powers on and will fire when I press the test button. The dial on it also seems to work because I've noticed I can control the intensity of the flash.

When I put the flash on the camera and fire the shutter, the flash doesn't fire. At any shutter speed, the shutter just opens, and will not close. The only thing I found I was able to do was to press the TEST button on the flash itself. This would fire the flash, and then, for some reason, the shutter would close. So somehow the flash is communicating with the camera. But this behavior persisted no matter what mode I set the flash on. In addition, the lights in the viewfinder seemed to be indicating no problems according to the manual.

And I know the camera light meter itself works just fine, because I've been using it this whole time.

Does anyone know if this is a common issue? Is there maybe a cold solder joint or something like that?

 

[Helge]

And you’ve cleaned the contacts throughly? If you have a meter, measure the voltage across the mid pin and the side of the flash foot.
And if your meter has the ability, measure continuity across the shoe at trigger time.

 

[Minolta93]

I cleaned the contacts with a q-tip and contact cleaner on both the flash and camera, and they look clean to me. I can't tell for sure if they're making proper contact, though. It seems like it. How would you measure continuity across the shoe at the trigger time? Isn't it a very short period of time?

 

[Helge]

I cleaned the contacts with a q-tip and contact cleaner on both the flash and camera, and they look clean to me. I can't tell for sure if they're making proper contact, though. It seems like it. How would you measure continuity across the shoe at the trigger time? Isn't it a very short period of time?

Yes it is, but some meters are able to pick it up anyway. Either as a time line or as a short disturbance of the numbers.
The flash foot has continuous voltage.
Have you tried another flash? Or tried the Minolta flash on another camera? That would rule a few things out.

 

[AgX]

And you’ve cleaned the contacts throughly? If you have a meter, measure the voltage across the mid pin and the side of the flash foot.
And if your meter has the ability, measure continuity across the shoe at trigger time.

Contact issues at the trigger contacts may explain why the flash was not triggered, but they could not keep the shutter open.

And I do not see how issues at the dedicated flash contacts either could cause this effect.


I rather see the issue located at the shutter control. Running astray once it gets the "flash coupled" (synch time) signal or the "flash charged" (synch time, flash ready indication) signal. I do not know this Minolta camera, but I guess you got my point concerning dedicated signals.


EDIT:
I overlooked that the camera in question even got flash-TTL.
But I commenmted on this later in the thread.

 

[Chan Tran]

If you have another camera (any brand) try the flash and see it would fire with the hot shoe. Or you can try to short the hot shoe contact and see if it would fire.

 

[AgX]

As I said above the hot-shoe trigger curcuit not working would not explain the shutter staying open.

We could consider two seperate issues, a trigger circuit issue and a shutter issue. But that triggering the flash externally results in the shutter closing strongly hints to both issues connected.

BUT there might be a different explanation: the camera having been in some auto-mode necessitating a very long exposure. The flash not firing having made the camera return to this mode. And the externally triggered flash (in case of flash TTL) making the shutter close. Not very convincing...

 

[xkaes]

I'm a Minolta user and have had a similar problem. One camera and one flash would not work together. The camera worked fine with other flashes. The flash worked fine on other cameras.

I never figured it out.

Check the shoe on the X-570. I think there are THREE contacts, because -- as I recall -- it has TTL flash. If you are using a TTL flash that does not fire, the shutter stays open waiting for the FLASH to fire. If it doesn't fire, the shutter can't close.

How many pins does your flash have? Try covering up the SMALL contacts on the camera or flash and see if the shutter works that way. My guess is it will. That probably won't get your flash to fire, however -- that's a different problem.

 

[Helge]

Contact issues at the trigger contacts may explain why the flash was not triggered, but they could not keep the shutter open.

And I do not see how issues at the dedicated flash contacts either could cause this effect.


I rather see the issue located at the shutter control. Running astray once it gets the "flash coupled" (synch time) signal or the "flash charged" (synch time, flash ready indication) signal. I do not know this Minolta camera, but I guess you got my point concerning dedicated signals.

I was thinking along lines a la the TTL circuit waiting for proper exposure before closing the curtain.
X-570 can actually sync below 60 for ambient fill.
But your explanation sounds more plausible.
If the shutter works otherwise, it has to have something to do with the contacts one way or another.

 

[xkaes]

As I said -- If you are using a TTL flash that does not fire, the shutter stays open waiting for the FLASH to fire. If it doesn't fire, the shutter can't close.

 

[Minolta93]

Yes it is, but some meters are able to pick it up anyway. Either as a time line or as a short disturbance of the numbers.
The flash foot has continuous voltage.
Have you tried another flash? Or tried the Minolta flash on another camera? That would rule a few things out.

I unfortunately do not have another flash nor do I have a working SLR with a hot shoe. Will the Minolta flash unit work on a modern camera? I don't have one, but I'm sure I know someone who has one and I could test it on that. I had ordered a small flash unit online but my package was stolen.

 

[Minolta93]

As I said -- If you are using a TTL flash that does not fire, the shutter stays open waiting for the FLASH to fire. If it doesn't fire, the shutter can't close.

Now, is the camera waiting for enough light, or is it actually just waiting for the flash itself? I'd tried firing the camera, then pointing it into bright indoor light while the shutter was open. I left it for a while and came back and it hadn't closed the shutter. So it leads me to believe it's not metering but just waiting for the flash itself to trigger. I assume that's what you mean but I don't know much about flashes so I just want to be sure.

 

[Minolta93]

I'm a Minolta user and have had a similar problem. One camera and one flash would not work together. The camera worked fine with other flashes. The flash worked fine on other cameras.

I never figured it out.

Check the shoe on the X-570. I think there are THREE contacts, because -- as I recall -- it has TTL flash. If you are using a TTL flash that does not fire, the shutter stays open waiting for the FLASH to fire. If it doesn't fire, the shutter can't close.

How many pins does your flash have? Try covering up the SMALL contacts on the camera or flash and see if the shutter works that way. My guess is it will. That probably won't get your flash to fire, however -- that's a different problem.

What do you think my chances are of buying a new flash and having it work?

 

[Helge]

I unfortunately do not have another flash nor do I have a working SLR with a hot shoe. Will the Minolta flash unit work on a modern camera? I don't have one, but I'm sure I know someone who has one and I could test it on that. I had ordered a small flash unit online but my package was stolen.

It should work on any camera where the dedicated contacts doesn’t line up with other proprietary contacts.

You need to establish what is wrong by elimination.
Get or borrow a cheap simple flash that doesn’t have voltage that will fry the shoe. So no Vivitar 283 of old Metz.

You could try shorting the mid pin and the side on the foot of the flash with a paperclip.
Can’t bring myself to do it with mine. X-) There is a 99% chance that it won’t hurt anything. But why take the risk with a flash that I know works perfectly?
It would establish if the flash can fire by contact on the foot, without having a second camera.

 

[Minolta93]

I know a place where I can borrow new cameras. I may try that to test my flash. I might be able to borrow a flash unit as well.

It should work on any camera where the dedicated contacts doesn’t line up with other proprietary contacts.

You need to establish what is wrong by elimination.
Get or borrow a cheap simple flash that doesn’t have voltage that will fry the shoe. So no Vivitar 283 of old Metz.

You could try shorting the mid pin and the side on the foot of the flash with a paperclip.
Can’t bring myself to do it with mine. X-) There is a 99% chance that it won’t hurt anything. But why take the risk with a flash that I know works perfectly?
It would establish if the flash can fire by contact on the foot, without having a second camera.

How would I know whether or not a flash has too high of a voltage?

 

[Minolta93]

I found this page in the Minolta X-series service manual. I'm not sure what the X contact is, or the F1 contact, but I suppose I can figure it out. It might be a broken wire inside the camera, but something that is only involved in the flash operation because the rest of the camera functions normally.

I also considered using a flash sync cable to see if the flash could fire that way, but I'd have to buy one first.

 

[cmacd123]

the X contact would probably be the X-Sync connection, the center terminal in the Hot shoe. the other one should be one of the smaller ones where the flash has a chat with the Camera.

 

[cmacd123]

found this block diagram of a Minolta 360PX flash. This might identify the contacts. the flash shoe is near the centre of the Diagram.

 

[AgX]

As I said -- If you are using a TTL flash that does not fire, the shutter stays open waiting for the FLASH to fire. If it doesn't fire, the shutter can't close.

Is that so? To my understanding in flash-TTL mode these cameras work with the shutter time set in advance. Thus start exposure, at the end of the first curtain run the flash is trigged and the second curtain started. Even the Canon T90 limits in flash-TTL mode the exposure time to 30sec.

But even if the camera would try to get a decent exposure even in case the flash fails, overriding a preset exposure time, then after some time the ambient lighting would be enough for the shutter to close.
But in the OP's case ambient light seemingly does not make the shutter close at all.

 

[AgX]

The OP may repeat his experiment of externally (by the test button) triggering the flash. But now shading the light output from the camera.

(Coincidence in time aside) If then the shutter closes, there would be some shutter control error as I hinted at in post #6: if closing immediately, triggered by the trigger voltage in its circuit, if closing some seconds later, triggered by the "charged" signal.

 

[Helge]

How would I know whether or not a flash has too high of a voltage?

Either measure it (just a simple voltmeter over the contacts) anything under 10V will be OK. Or look up the specs (Google should suffice).
Almost any flash manufactured after 1980 should be good.

 

[MattKing]

Here is a useful flash trigger voltage resource: Photo Strobe Trigger Voltages

 

[Helge]

Try using a toothpick or the edge of cut up credit card on the middle contact of the shoe and foot.
It’s more abrasive than a swap, but it won’t mar the metal, but will remove stubborn invisible residue.
Don’t ever use metal to scrape the contact. It can make things worse and looks bad.

 

[AgX]

Matt King:
Here is a useful flash trigger voltage resource: Photo Strobe Trigger Voltages


However you and the author mix up terms (and sometimes I do too). This may look like hairsplitting but I could deduce absurd voltages in such listings to this misunderstanding.

What the author (and typically we all) mean is the synch voltage.

 

[cmacd123]

Is that so? To my understanding in flash-TTL mode these cameras work with the shutter time set in advance. Thus start exposure, at the end of the first curtain run the flash is trigged and the second curtain started.

the Trouble shooting chart referenced above, does metion this posiblity on the TTL equiped X series. (X500 or X570 or X 700) it seems like the flash itself is the one that commands the second curtain, when the Camera detects that it is talking to a dedicated Minolta Flash. A bit weird, BUT I can see that that would allow for a future model to do things like second curtain sync. (wait some time after curtain open, and then fire and close second curtain)
X500 sold in Europe, and x570 sold in North america, otherwise almost identical although I am not sure if both the chrome and black versions were in all Markets) )