First time RA4 - Chemical questions

[ac123]

I'm building a darkroom in my closet to print RA4, however I was seeking some clarification before purchasing the chemicals I need to begin. I'll be handling chemicals mostly in an 8x10 drum.

As of right now, it seems the standard chemical "kit" is the Arista RA4 Kit (4 Liters), however it seems quite pricey for just 4L of one-shot chemicals?

I noticed that Kodak chemicals are back in stock at Freestyle, the Ektacolor RA Blix / Replenisher, and that there is both [A] and (B) models available. These seem far more economical as they make 100L of chemical per kit- however, would I then additionally need a Developer Starter instead of the included Replenisher? I'm not totally sure of the difference between the developer/starter, as well as the difference between the A and B models that are on sale.

I've worked in black and white prints years ago, but totally new at printing RA4, so any tips & clarification on chemical type, mixing, and timing is extremely helpful. Thanks so much.

 

[koraks]

I noticed that Kodak chemicals are back in stock at Freestyle, the Ektacolor RA Blix / Replenisher, and that there is both [A] and (B) models available.

Note that this is blix, specifically. It comes in two components, A and B, and you need both. You generally don't need a starter for the blix.
Going by the photos, the listed products are old stock. This needn't be a problem.

100 liters is a lot of blix.

In addition to the blix, you'll need a developer. It's OK to use a different developer (Arista, Champion, Fuji etc.) with a Kodak blix and vice versa.

I'm not totally sure of the difference between the developer/starter

A replenisher is a slightly more concentrated and more alkaline RA4 developer. If used without seasoning or adding starter, it generally produces poor results. The starter is added (plus some additional water) to bring the developer on spec. This system works with large tanks/racks in mind where you typically replenish and not often replace the entire contents of the machine.

For home use in drums, kits like Arista etc. work without a starter or replenisher. They can be used one shot. They can also be reused until...well, there's no hard & fast rule. Until the results don't look good anymore or until you don't trust the consistency. Take your pick.

I find one shot with RA4 wasteful. Others swear by it. It's a matter of preference.

You might find this relevant: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photograph...ta-using-color-c41-and-ra4-chemistry-at-home/

 

[DREW WILEY]

In terms of one-shot usage, Freestyle variously offers Kodak Ra/Rt, their own Arista house label RA4 kits, and Silver Pixel brand, all of which are interchangeable and excellent. All of these are technically "starter" kits unless specifically labeled otherwise, but can be hypothetically used for replenishment too. They do not contain a separate stabilizer needed for replenished automated roller processor units. However, anything they sell as "room temperature" RA4, or by Tetenal, is not the same thing.

I personally mix up only enough chem at a time as I need for a single day's session, using drums. That habit has alleviated all kinds of problems in consistency. I'm interested in optimal performance, not generic results.

What I wish was available separately is Part B developer, since it's the first thing that goes bad once opened, if not all used up in due time.

 

[ac123]

Note that this is blix, specifically. It comes in two components, A and B, and you need both. You generally don't need a starter for the blix.
Going by the photos, the listed products are old stock. This needn't be a problem.

100 liters is a lot of blix.

In addition to the blix, you'll need a developer. It's OK to use a different developer (Arista, Champion, Fuji etc.) with a Kodak blix and vice versa.



A replenisher is a slightly more concentrated and more alkaline RA4 developer. If used without seasoning or adding starter, it generally produces poor results. The starter is added (plus some additional water) to bring the developer on spec. This system works with large tanks/racks in mind where you typically replenish and not often replace the entire contents of the machine.

For home use in drums, kits like Arista etc. work without a starter or replenisher. They can be used one shot. They can also be reused until...well, there's no hard & fast rule. Until the results don't look good anymore or until you don't trust the consistency. Take your pick.

I find one shot with RA4 wasteful. Others swear by it. It's a matter of preference.

You might find this relevant: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photograph...ta-using-color-c41-and-ra4-chemistry-at-home/

Thanks so much for sharing, your article is extremely helpful, I will be studying it...

I think for now I may start off with the arista kit and reuse the one-shot chemicals for a few prints. I only really was inquiring about the Kodak ones since I see so often that they're out of stock.

Reading through your article, in regards to temperature control for RA4 chemicals, how imperative do you suppose it is to keep it at a higher temperature? The room temp in my apartment is usually around 70 degrees. I actually picked up a Jobo CPE2 that I was considering selling (since I do not care to develop negatives, just to print them) but reading this point, I wonder if it is worth it to use it instead to heat up my RA4 chemicals? Unless it would only make a marginal difference in color/tone?

In terms of one-shot usage, Freestyle variously offers Kodak Ra/Rt, their own Arista house label RA4 kits, and Silver Pixel brand, all of which are interchangeable and excellent. All of these are technically "starter" kits unless specifically labeled otherwise, but can be hypothetically used for replenishment too. They do not contain a separate stabilizer needed for replenished automated roller processor units. However, anything they sell as "room temperature" RA4, or by Tetenal, is not the same thing.

I personally mix up only enough chem at a time as I need for a single day's session, using drums. That habit has alleviated all kinds of problems in consistency. I'm interested in optimal performance, not generic results.

What I wish was available separately is Part B developer, since it's the first thing that goes bad once opened, if not all used up in due time.

Cool, thanks - agreed in consistency - do you use chemicals one-shot or are you reusing the chemistry for several prints?
I'm working in mainly 8x10 and wondering how many decent prints I can expect to make on a "one-shot" of chemicals...

 

[DREW WILEY]

One-shot means one print, whether large for small (I have different drum sizes, clear up to 30X40 inch capacity). If it's a large print, I'll mix up just enough for that at a time (plus enough extra for a couple of 8x10 drum test strips). But if a series of smaller prints, I mix up enough cumulative volume sufficient for the daily session.

I standardize on 30C / 83F temperature, 2 minute steps. I have a Jobo Tempering Box unit by itself, good for that. But it's fairly simple to rig up a DIY water jacket and immersion heater to do the same thing. Or your CPE2 should have a built-in one; I'd keep the unit. RA4 is not terribly fussy in that respect; but try to keep within plus/minus 3 deg F; and with the Jobo unit, it's easy to stay within even tighter tolerances. Remember, these are tempering units, not water heaters per se. You want to start with water fairly close in temperature, and then it will adjust and maintain it. But if you start too cool, the heater element can burn out. Thankfully, on mine there is a reset button if the unit somehow overheats. Never turn it on dry.

 

[mshchem]

If you're using the Jobo for prints you will need to rinse and dry the tube before reuse. You don't really need the Jobo, just a flat surface to roll the drum or use a drum roller.

Closet darkrooms can get steamy and stinky in no short order, tried this in college

 

[koraks]

how imperative do you suppose it is to keep it at a higher temperature?

You can go as low as 70F without issue. Just develop longer; usually 90 to 120 seconds suffices at this temperature.
If you run into session-to-sesdion variations in color filtering that you find objectionable, then by all means control time and temperature more strictly. I've never found this to be necessary and just went with the time I mentioned and whatever "room temperature" happened to be. Nowadays I mostly use a temperature controlled RT processor, but from time to time still do room temperature tray development. I can't tell afterwards which prints I made in which way.

 

[DREW WILEY]

When using drums, the shorter the development time, the higher the percent of that time is involved with filling and draining, risking streaking or inconsistency. That's why I standardize on 2 minutes and not anything less lengthy; and my drums fill and drain way faster than most. Tray development is out of the question. I'm already sensitized to RA4 chemistry, so load the drum in the dark, but do the actually processing using a portable cart outdoors during mild weather. A mere fume hood isn't sufficient in my case. For the rest of you, you never know how much exposure to these chemicals it takes to suddenly get sensitized to them, so always use rubber gloves and good ventilation. I've known people whose commercial lab careers ended due to cumulative RA4 exposure.

But by being extra careful in this respect, and also due to being less exposed to chemicals in general after retirement, I'm less sensitive to RA4 than I used to be.

 

[mshchem]

One-shot means one print, whether large for small (I have different drum sizes, clear up to 30X40 inch capacity). If it's a large print, I'll mix up just enough for that at a time (plus enough extra for a couple of 8x10 drum test strips). But if a series of smaller prints, I mix up enough cumulative volume sufficient for the daily session.

I standardize on 30C / 83F temperature, 2 minute steps. I have a Jobo Tempering Box unit by itself, good for that. But it's fairly simple to rig up a DIY water jacket and immersion heater to do the same thing. Or your CPE2 should have a built-in one; I'd keep the unit. RA4 is not terribly fussy in that respect; but try to keep within plus/minus 3 deg F; and with the Jobo unit, it's easy to stay within even tighter tolerances. Remember, these are tempering units, not water heaters per se. You want to start with water fairly close in temperature, and then it will adjust and maintain it. But if you start too cool, the heater element can burn out. Thankfully, on mine there is a reset button if the unit somehow overheats. Never turn it on dry.

These Jobo tempering boxes are nice! I have settled on the 6x1 liter and the 6 grad cylinder version (also holds a film tank)

 

[ac123]

Thanks for all the info.

Another RA4 question I had - I've obtained a couple of darkroom timers but notice that when I'm fully in the dark, the clock hands dimly glow.
Is this enough to affect prints, will I need to use a timer with no glow?

 

[koraks]

As long as you don't get the paper close to the glowing dials you should be OK. Have fun!

 

[ac123]

I've started making a few initial prints with the Arista kit.

Wondering as to why the white paper is coming out yellow on the edges that aren't part of the picture? (I think the whole picture is incorrectly toned with this sort of yellow).

Also there are blue smudges all over the edges of the paper. Are these light leaks of some sort?

I'm developing using 60mL of one-shot in a Jobo 2830.
(The recommended mL on this tank says 100 but since I'm just doing 8x10 I figured I may be ok to get away with 60 mL?)

I'm at 75 degrees and using the recommended arista times of:
30s Pre-Wash
3m 40s Developer
1m 30s Blix
2m Wash

 

[mshchem]

First I would use 100mL or more. If you want to save chemistry save 50mL from the first 100mL run and use 50mL fresh and 50mL used for each consecutive print.

The blue could be as simple as not using enough water in presoak (the presoak water will be blue. I would not skimp on presoak water, give a couple 30-40 second presoaks.

Developer and Blix times are usually the same? Since you are using a drum I would try this at 95-100F

Brown could be light leak or reflection fogging the paper. I've seen slight tan from chemical fog from over active Developer (I forgot to add starter to Kodak Ektacolor dev), this can happen from high agitation like what's going on with your Jobo.

Hard to tell. Any light will fog color paper, no safelight, work in total darkness

 

[gbroadbridge]

I've started making a few initial prints with the Arista kit.

Wondering as to why the white paper is coming out yellow on the edges that aren't part of the picture? (I think the whole picture is incorrectly toned with this sort of yellow).

Also there are blue smudges all over the edges of the paper. Are these light leaks of some sort?

View attachment 362506


I'm developing using 60mL of one-shot in a Jobo 2830.
(The recommended mL on this tank says 100 but since I'm just doing 8x10 I figured I may be ok to get away with 60 mL?)

I'm at 75 degrees and using the recommended arista times of:
30s Pre-Wash
3m 40s Developer
1m 30s Blix
2m Wash

If you're using a drum you must use AT LEAST the amount stated on the drum, I often used 500ml.

 

[koraks]

The blue could be as simple as not using enough water in presoak

The blue is usually due to blix contamination of the developer.
It will not be the blue (actually cyan) dye of the paper unless the paper has remained absolutely dry in those places, and that's definitely not the case here as the edges to the blue spots would be different. The cyan anti-halation dye will wash out very easily in any bath (water, dev, fix etc.) so in a drum processing situation, it's virtually impossible for any of this dye to come out on the paper at the end.

@ac123 if you're using drums, a concern is the lid of the drum that has the light trap in it. This can be difficult to clean between development sessions. A few remaining drops of blix can ruin the next developing round. This is one reason I personally don't like drums for RA4. Blix contamination of the developer results in a cyan cast and usually cyan streaky patterns. The defect shown on the long edges of your print almost certainly due to blix contamination.

If you're using a drum you must use AT LEAST the amount stated on the drum, I often used 500ml.

Print drums work with far smaller volumes generally since you use them on a rotary base. 50-100ml is fairly typical for an 8x10 print drum. I do agree to er on the side of safety, but there's no utility in going overboard. In fact, the Jobo paper drums have a kind of buffer 'cup' inside the lid that holds the chemistry while the drum is still vertical. This ensures that the chemistry all enters the drum at more or less the same time as the drum is tilted on its side, which helps prevent uneven development. Filling a drum with such a cup with more chemistry than the cup will hold, does away with this advantage. I don't recommend it.

3m 40s Developer

That's very, very long. My RA4 developing time even at room temperature is 90 to 120 seconds. 120 seconds always does the job. A little overdevelopment doesn't hurt, but I don't know if overdeveloping by 100% is such a good idea.

Brown could be light leak or reflection fogging the paper.

Old Fuji paper fogs to yellow and then tan when it's (long) expired. The yellow sets in after a year or two but will be very, very faint. It then gets progressively worse.

However, in this case, I expect the yellow fog is actually due to lack of proper masking of the paper on an easel combined with stray light. Use a regular easel/frame with masking blades and the problem likely goes away. It will not fix the cyan borders, though.

Another possibility is a blue indicator LED on some piece of equipment.
Keep in mind that RA4 paper is extremely sensitive to blue light, less so to green light, and even less so to red light. So anything that emits blue light will be a massive problem, even if it's only a tiny bit of light.

So my suggestions are, in summary:
* Revise darkroom conditions and exclude any source of light. It should be absolutely pitch dark, and no light should be visible even after accommodating your eyes to the dark for 5-10 minutes.
* Obtain a proper printing easel and ensure the negative is properly masked in the negative holder. If using an enlarger for larger formats than 35mm, set it up for 35mm and not some larger format; this means adjusting any masking blades to cut out stray light etc. Ensure that the enlarger doesn't leak any light from the lamp house etc. Put tape or a dark cloth over any seams etc. that bleed light.
* Revise your use of processing drums and either (temporarily) switch to trays to get the basics down, or figure out how to use your drums in such a way that there's no blix being carried over from one run to the next. This is of course possible since many people use drums to good effect, but you may have to quite thoroughly rinse your drum between development runs. It takes time, but as you can see, it's necessary.

 

[ac123]

That's very, very long. My RA4 developing time even at room temperature is 90 to 120 seconds. 120 seconds always does the job. A little overdevelopment doesn't hurt, but I don't know if overdeveloping by 100% is such a good idea.

Thanks! That's initially what I thought too based on the information I've seen around but the instructions for the Arista kit chemicals say:

Regardless I went ahead and tried a print at 85 F with the suggested 1m 40s Developer / 1m Blix.

I added a rinse in between the developer / blix since some of the yellow maybe may could been caused by developer contaminating the blix.

I was thinking there was no way a blue light could be visible inside my darkroom, then while putting on my over ear headphones I noticed a small blue light on the bottom that flashes every 5 secs may also have been a cause.

Coming out much more color accurate now with one-shot 60mL

Though can't tell if the contrast is feeling low or if it's just the print "look" compared to how I'm used to seeing it scanned.

Wondering for this Jobo drum that has the light trap, am I required to shake the chemical around after pouring it in? Or is simply turning the drum horizontal enough to let all the liquid leak out of the trap? For these prints, I have been pouring the chemical in, then sloshing it back and forth a few times before placing it on the Jobo Agitator, which I have set to speed 2 (rotates left, then right, alternating back and forth).

 

[mshchem]

Don't do any sloshing. The cup is designed to hold the solution until you turn the tank on it's side. The rinse between developer and blix isn't technically required but I actually use a stop bath between developer and blix. Very small amounts of blix can mess up the developer, not so much a little developer in the blix.
The second print looks much better. I suspect that your biggest issue was light fogging. Enjoy!

 

[koraks]

I noticed a small blue light on the bottom that flashes every 5 secs

Bingo.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I ALWAYS use a mild 1% acetic acid stop bath between DEV and BLIX, as well as an optional brief but ample water rinse after the stop bath itself. Why? Sometimes a bit of residual developer remains in the drum somewhere, like on the endwall, or somewhere in the lid. Laugh if you must, but it can be an actual problem when using drums; and my system has efficient 3-way motion, no just rotary.

The blue margins indicate insufficient chemistry volume; the yellow-brown effect, exhausted developer. I like to mix up only enough chemistry at a time sufficient for a single day's work session. But overall yellowing, including margins can also be due to outdated paper.

Then there's the possibility of light fogging too; never assume any noticeable light is safe, even luminous timer hands, unless you've specifically tested first. Darkrooms mean just that : dark. For example, many heavy-duty extension cords have an end socket which glows when the power it on; those have to be covered with black electrical tape.

 

[ac123]

Does anyone have experience using the 10mL kits of Silver Pixel chemicals?

Looking to purchase the Developer/Replenisher and the Blix/Replenisher.
I would likely only be mixing this up in 1mL batches at a time, and storing the leftover chemicals in oxygen-less glass bottles.
This would be used one-shot in a jobo drum.

I'm not seeing developer starter available for purchase from freestyle, but wondering how necessary that is to the process? I see some posts on forums where people forego the developer starter and seem to have ok results.

Is it possible to use this chemistry without replenishing it (since I'm not sure that's best practice with drums); just to mix A/B/C bottles into 1mL working solutions and use that in a daily session?

 

[koraks]

10mL

10ml = 10 thousandths of a liter. That's about 0.3 fl. oz., give or take.

I'm not seeing developer starter available for purchase from freestyle, but wondering how necessary that is to the process?

An RA4 developer that requires a starter really does need the starter in order to work well. If you don't use a starter, you generally won't be able to get a decent print from it. There will be an unfilterable color cast and (counterintuitively) you may only get a reddish brown tone instead of true black.

An alternative to using a starter is to take replenisher, add some water and maybe a little acetic acid, and run a couple of square feet of paper through it (for a modest amount of developer of 1-2 liters). At some point, the process will stabilize, by which time you can start replenishing. You save the developer in a tightly capped, full bottle and continue using it over future sessions, replenishing as you go along.

The initial period of getting the developer to settle takes some work as you'll first have to run sacrificial paper through it and then have to keep printing until the color balance stabilizes. Just buying the starter is usually an easier and quicker route.

Is it possible to use this chemistry without replenishing it

Not if you forego the starter. If you use a starter, then yes, you can use it one shot in rotary drums. I personally choose to replenish as it creates less waste and it's cheaper on a per-print basis. YMMV.

 

[ac123]

Whoops, meant 20L. My bad

Would a Kodak brand developer starter be okay to use with silver pixel? I noticed they don't seem to make a starter. A user on this thread claimed that he has spoken with PSI who manufactures these chemicals and they said the kit doesn't need a starter, they just haven't updated chemistry instructions, which is why they don't make one (?)

Upon reading the instructions for this chemistry, there also doesn't seem to be much noted on replenishment rates. Would you know of any good place to start reading/if anyone has any experience with replenishing silver pixel chemicals? (specifically in a drum)

 

[koraks]

I'm sorry, you'll really have to ask SilverPixel. Things like starter composition and replenishment rates can be totally different between products from even the same manufacturer, let alone different brands. I don't know who makes the SilverPixel chemistry; you'll have to ask them and hope they can give some pointers.

 

[ac123]

I'm sorry, you'll really have to ask SilverPixel. Things like starter composition and replenishment rates can be totally different between products from even the same manufacturer, let alone different brands. I don't know who makes the SilverPixel chemistry; you'll have to ask them and hope they can give some pointers.

Copy that- thank you for your help!!

 

[koraks]

Sure thing. If you're adventurous, you could just give it a go and treat the SilverPixel replenisher as if it were Kodak RT and see what happens. There's a good chance that it'll work well enough for a home darkroom setting.