First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

mshchem

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Is there any chance of Kodak coming out with a new professional grade C-41 or E-6 film ? Not Gold, but something special like high-speed Ektachrome, or an E-6 Kodachrome look alike?

The resources required would be enormous. Harman is doing well considering the difficulty of producing color film.
 

Disconnekt

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A new 400 iso E6 film from Kodak would be cool to see, they can base it off/reformulate Ektachrome 400X
 

mshchem

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Disconnekt said:
A new 400 iso E6 film from Kodak would be cool to see, they can base it off/reformulate Ektachrome 400X
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I just hope there's people who can do the magic. People who retire, at Kodak, suppliers, distribution etc.

I made my semi-annual trek to Walmart today, I asked the Photo department person who didn't speak English except "camera" I found one pack of 3 Fujifilm 36 exp 400 speed made in USA print film, $25 USD. I have plenty of 35mm film.
 

halfaman

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Somebody told me last week that Lucky is really coming back and in short term with a 35 mm ISO 200 C-41 color film (Super 200 again?). If this is true, it can affect Harman strategy. Lucky can produce proper C-41 film and with a competitive price.
 

brbo

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Lucky C-41 rumors are now a few years old “news”. Along with new Yashica C-41 film that never materialized. Not to mention that we are nearing the 4-year deadline for Adox proper C-41 film.

TLDR, I”ll believe it when I see it. Harman is probably operating on the same basis. Plus, Phoenix seems like a film that will have a look like no other C-41 film which will probably be enough for a profitable item in Harma’s portfolio.
 

koraks

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The Lucky story is a little off-topic, so maybe we'll split it off of this thread at some point.

Anyway, Google turns up this: That Reddit thread is wrought with misunderstandings, misinterpretations and evidently a lack of concrete information. The factory visit photos function as 'evidence' (at least in how I read this) that Lucky is about to produce color film. Film-wise, the only thing we see in the photos are bits of a confectioning line. No actual coating stuff. The layer stack in the presentation is one of color paper - not film. A Lucky employee is cited as saying that "sure we can do 120 as well; it's just a big sheet of film so it doesn't matter what we cut from it", but that's not really the case, since 120 and 135 go on different bases (although they might decide to cut a massive corner and ignore the reasons why base materials would have to be different).
From the 'evidence' presented, it's unclear whether lucky is presently capable of coating a color film. They have been in the past, so who knows. It's just a question mark at this point.

Having said that, if they come up with a C41 film let's hope it'll be a decent one and more along the lines of NC500/Shanghai 400 than something resembling Phoenix. It's evidently nice to have Phoenix with its unique, quirky character (and honestly, I hope Harman keep producing it from time to time even after they move on to a more final product), but I think most of us are really looking for a more regular C41 film that also optically prints decently.

On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if Lucky's statements about a new C41 film turn out to be a 200-speed Kodak film that they buy as master rolls and then confection in China.

halfaman said:
If this is true, it can affect Harman strategy.
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How? In the sense that Harman would simply give up? Probably not; they're too invested in it. It may only mean that it'll be a lot more difficult for them to recoup the investment. And frankly, it would have had to be incredibly naïve for Harman to have counted on the market conditions remaining the same when they started with their C41 adventure. Lucky has always been in business; they've been pumping out color paper all the time. Moreover, Harman would have been amply aware of which players have a demonstrated or potential capability of producing a functional color film by the time Harman expects to introduce their final/mature C41 product(s).
It won't affect Harman's strategy. It may affect Harman's market introduction and their marketing mix (incl. pricing).
 

halfaman

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brbo said:
Lucky C-41 rumors are now a few years old “news”. Along with new Yashica C-41 film that never materialized. Not to mention that we are nearing the 4-year deadline for Adox proper C-41 film.
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I don't think that those companies can be compared. Adox has never produced color film and they are severely restricted technologically to do it, trying it is already a remarkable effort. Yashica is just a brand, so none of their products are "produced" but labelled. Lucky produced color film in the past but decided years ago (2012) to stop doing it, they currently produced color paper and photographic chemicals (development agents, couplers and dyes).


koraks said:
It won't affect Harman's strategy. It may affect Harman's market introduction and their marketing mix (incl. pricing).
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In my world marketing is part of a business or product strategy.


koraks said:
How? In the sense that Harman would simply give up?
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That is pushing (or twisting) too much the meaning of my phrase. They have a plan and perhaps they would need to adjust it in the case of some affordable and competent chinese color film appears.
 

MTGseattle

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MTGseattle

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Here's one example from the day. In the rest of the roll, the greens and blues are even more muted. Everything skewed into warmer tones. I had these scanned at the lab, maybe I'll scan a few and see if something happened during scanning to add to the problems?
 

blee1996

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Yes, I highly recommend you scan at home and do post processing yourself. My best combination so far:

Epson V700
Epson Scan as positive/slide
Negative Labs Pro conversion

Thus colors, contrast and resolution are all excellent.
 

albireo

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I highly suspect that's the case. Most of the good results I've seen with this film were obtained by people doing their own scanning. The example I posted above were - apparently - scanned on an Epson flatbed and converted using this tool https://negmaster.com/
 

loccdor

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Are you all shooting Phoenix at 200 or 125?

I've been shooting at 125 for several months but haven't developed any yet. It will be a while until I have enough films to mix up some C-41 chemistry.
 

P C Headland

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loccdor said:
Are you all shooting Phoenix at 200 or 125?

I've been shooting at 125 for several months but haven't developed any yet. It will be a while until I have enough films to mix up some C-41 chemistry.
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I shot my first rolls of 135 and 120 at 125, though if I buy any more I might try at 160 or 200, just to see. Shadows can go pretty murky and grainy.

Here's a couple of frames from the roll shot on the Canon FTb at EI 125.

 

Agulliver

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I recall Harman themselves saying that Phoenix is actually 125ISO but they DX coded it as 200 because that worked best with more simple cameras. If I get any in 120 I might well try shooting at 125, depending on the scene. I've had over exposed frames at 200 where a substantial part of the frame was sky and the highlights are simply blown out. And that's with two different cameras, an SLR and a P&S. If one follow's Harman's advice to fill the frame with the subject, 125 should work.
 

pbromaghin

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As I remember it, 125 was what the Engineers measured and 200 is what Marketing decreed.
 

zoo

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I've devised a method to virtually eliminate halation, improve highlight/shadow detail preservation, and significantly improve color balance.

Full article: taming the phoenix
 

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koraks

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zoo said:
I've devised a method to virtually eliminate halation, improve highlight/shadow detail preservation, and significantly improve color balance.

Full article: taming the phoenix
Click to expand...

This is very interesting; I've flipped through your article only briefly and apart from the chuckles you gave me, it's a really really interesting approach and the results are fascinating for sure.
 

Sanug

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I gave my first roll of Harman Phoenix to a drugstore in Germany. They send it to a big lab. I ordered the development and prints in 13x18 cm. The service is very cheap. The prints have very stong and strange colour and contrast.











Praktica MTL 5, Zeiss Jena Pancolar 1,8/50 mm.
 

koraks

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Sanug said:
They send it to a big lab. I ordered the development and prints in 13x18 cm.
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The lab is virtually certain to be CeWe. The prints are digitally exposed RA4 prints that are made automatically from scans of the film. I think yours came out pretty well considering how extreme Phoenix negatives are in comparison with regular C41 film.
 

albireo

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zoo said:
I've devised a method to virtually eliminate halation, improve highlight/shadow detail preservation, and significantly improve color balance.

Full article: taming the phoenix
Click to expand...

I was really liking your sample images (the white chair by the porch is quite cute), until I realised that those I was looking at were your samples of 'bad, bad, bad!' traditionally exposed and developed Phoenix.

Imagine my surprise, then, when I found that those you obtained via your Onanysmy method are much worse.

Harman Phoenix 200 is decidedly terrible.
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No it's not. Many people find it great. Just a few pages above I posted some results by a guy who is doing pretty great stuff with it.

Features, not bugs. Don't like its features? Why not choose to shoot a roll of Portra and call it a day.
 
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