First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

Agulliver · Dec 3, 2023

Kino said:
What's the point of having yet another color emulsion that duplicates the "Professional" standards of Kodak and Fuji?

Frankly, from what I have seen so far, I rather like the look of the film.

The mainstays of the Kodak and Fuji lines have had severe issues with availability for around 6-7 years now. If I could go to a shop or go online and know that I could pick up any one of FUji C200, Kodak Color Plus or Kodak Ultramax then I'd be happy. But my local brick and mortar store still has an order dating back to 2022 unfulfilled and sporadically gets Gold or Fuji 200 (coated by Kodak). They had a few bricks of Gold appear two weeks ago and sold out within three days. When I go online, I try several suppliers and it really is hit and miss as to what's available.

Harman, with their absolute commitment to film and great distribution channels are in a position to provide something that Kodak and Fuji are not....a consistent supply.

But having said all that, this Phoenix film seems to do really punchy portraits. The jazz club I frequent turned on the spotlights for me to try it last night, though I only shot 9 exposures on Phoenix at 1/15s and f1.8. I intend to do the rest of the film on a frosty day with cloud cover so the lighting is quite diffuse. Maybe try a sunny portrait or two though I'm more a landscape and plant kind of guy.

I do think this film is interesting, some of the shots I've seen in reviews are poor and others really are quite impressive in their way. This isn't going to render scenes/portraits in their natural colours, but it certainly has a "look" that can be made quite attractive.

AnselMortensen · Dec 3, 2023

This new film is just another tool in the toolbox.
I bought some to play with, test out and to find the lighting situations where it gives the best results for my purposes. Similar to what Agulliver said above, the images attached to various reviews range from excellent to lackluster.
I'm curious to see how it can be "punchy" and "subdued" at the same time.
I suspect that variations in scanning and the amount of post-processing is a significant factor... but we'll see.

Lachlan Young · Dec 3, 2023

Maris said:
the grainy, gritty, muted, low resolution but gorgeous photographs from Sheila Metzner via the Atelier Fresson process

There's a lot that can be done with any of the separation/ assembly processes - and there is always the option to colour/ contrast mask the film before printing/ separating it...

brbo · Dec 3, 2023

Agulliver said:
Harman, with their absolute commitment to film and great distribution channels are in a position to provide something that Kodak and Fuji are not....a consistent supply.

Anyone know/guess if Harman can easily do 10x the quantity they are doing now?

Sal Santamaura · Dec 3, 2023

Mike Crawford said:
...I spent an hour or more looking through some of the YouTube films earlier and despaired a bit. Couldn’t bring myself to watch a whole video! I do find that many of them seem to blend into one. Lots of jump cuts, and why do so many use the same sort of scratchy, sub trip hop soundtrack while editing in some slow motion clips of them trying to look cool holding their camera of choice? And the quality of the photos?...

Typical PHOTRIO members are most definitely not the target audience for those YouTube videos (not "films"). They're created by and for the generations that eschew melodious "music" and accurate photographic reproduction.

Mike Crawford said:
...scanning, like printing is an absolutely subjective process, so if the film is being judged purely by a scan, it’s going to look different with every lab...

Just as optical prints would look different with every different lab. Unless comparing transparencies using a calibrated illumination source, there's very little point in attempting to reach any definitive conclusions looking at even scanned optical RA-4 prints on an Internet Web site.

Mike Crawford said:
...I’m curious about Harman’s marketing approach. It’s all linked to the younger analogue community, which is absolutely understandable and fitting and I’m not criticising that, but there seems to be no interest in getting the best out of the film. As part of the community of UK specialist printers, I used to do a lot of testing for Ilford / Harman on papers and occasionally chemistry over the years. Sometimes there were exhibitions for which we would give our clients Ilford film to shoot, which we would then print for the shows, often then used for Ilford calendars and wall planners. I know great professional colour printers still working in the darkroom and would be good to see what they could get out of this film. Likewise, for producing high res scans on an Imacon or drum scanner and then working on Photoshop which would seem another option. I recently had a job scanning 120 Boots colour neg form the 80s, (Boots being a UK chain of chemists), which had a really strange base tint unlike normal C41, but with a bit of work on the scan got a really good result...

Pemberstone's marketing to the market. Young people, who, in many cases, don't even want the negatives back after a lab scans their substandard (it's a feature!) C-41 film. Your past experiences and continued interest in quality results mark you, like me and most PHOTRIO members, as a small niche within a niche, as well as a dying breed. Pemberstone's HARMAN is no different from any other corporation. Many are convinced it's in the business of making film and paper. Actually, it is in the business of making money. Today, substantial profit in the silver halide imaging industry lies with Lomo-worshipping hipsters. Not us. The most effective thing we can do is play out our lives enjoying Ilford black and white films/papers for the satisfaction they can provide, while wishing lovers of deficient color negative films all the best as they help by keeping HARMAN afloat.

Henning Serger · Dec 3, 2023

brbo said:
Anyone know/guess if Harman can easily do 10x the quantity they are doing now?

The bottleneck for increased production volume is the film confectioning, not the coating.
With such very sophisticated and complex production lines Harman is operating in Mobberley you need breaks and production interruptions to do bigger maintenance and repair work. Therefore often in such factories there are general "factory vacancies" for some weeks for the majority of the staff, and in that time the maintenance and repair experts are working "around the clock".
Let's calculate that in, also some national free days and unintended breaks for repairs, then the yearly capacity for 35mm film at Mobberley is about 6.5 - 7 million films, in a one shift operation, so 8h per working day.

Let's just assume (keeping things simple) that currently Harman is using that capacity almost completely, then their way to increase production would be adding a second shift, or if needed even a third shift. Operating in three shifts 24h per day has been standard in film production at many factories in the past, so it is nothing unusual.
Fujifilm is running its instant-film confectioning in three shifts per day for many years, and even that was not enough so investments in additional confectioning machines is needed and currently done. Kodak is operating 3-shift 135 film confectioning again, too.

So principally Harman could produce additionally max. 13 - 14 million 135 format colour films with the existing confectioning line, but would need to hire and train additional personal for the additional shifts.
And such a potential volume is quite a lot in the market.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Dec 3, 2023

Sal Santamaura said:
Today, substantial profit in the silver halide imaging industry lies with Lomo-worshipping hipsters. Not us.

No Sal, you are - fortunately - completely overestimating the importance of Lomography. They are a very small niche in the market. They had a strong boom from around 2006 to 2012, a time in which they expanded very rapidly and introduced lots of local Lomography stores worldwide. But that was a kind of "Strohfeuer" / Strawfire / Flash in the pan.
Because after 2012 that boom decreased almost as fast as it arosed, and almost all of their local stores for example are meanwhile either closed or sold.
If you now look at sales data of big(ger) national and international film distributors, then you'll see that Lomography type products are a very small niche, and definitely not dominant in the film photography market.

Best regards,
Henning

halfaman · Dec 3, 2023

brbo said:
Anyone know/guess if Harman can easily do 10x the quantity they are doing now?

What I heard 4-5 years ago is that they coat like 3 days per week, and then the people was moved to other sections for the rest of their labour time.

Henning Serger · Dec 3, 2023

halfaman said:
What I heard 4-5 years ago is that they coat like 3 days per week, and then the people was moved to other sections for the rest of their labour time.

No, they have not coated 3 days per week at that time, it was much less.
When we were there, they coated 3 days per month (in 3-shifts per day), and in the time-span in between the demand for BW film has not increased so much that production had to be 4x the volume than before.

Best regards,
Henning

BrianShaw · Dec 3, 2023

Henning Serger said:
No Sal, you are - fortunately - completely overestimating the importance of Lomography. They are a very small niche in the market. They had a strong boom from around 2006 to 2012, a time in which they expanded very rapidly and introduced lots of local Lomography stores worldwide. But that was a kind of "Strohfeuer" / Strawfire / Flash in the pan.
Because after 2012 that boom decreased almost as fast as it arosed, and almost all of their local stores for example are meanwhile either closed or sold.
If you now look at sales data of big(ger) national and international film distributors, then you'll see that Lomography type products are a very small niche, and definitely not dominant in the film photography market.

Best regards,
Henning

So who are the primary film buyers… folk like “us”?

George Mann · Dec 3, 2023

BrianShaw said:
So who are the primary film buyers… folk like “us”?

You all have fridges full of film, so apparently.

mshchem · Dec 3, 2023

If Harman wants to sell film to Us crazy people, they could make "Limited Edition" HP5 in 220.

Sal Santamaura · Dec 3, 2023

Henning Serger said:
No Sal, you are - fortunately - completely overestimating the importance of Lomography. They are a very small niche in the market. They had a strong boom from around 2006 to 2012, a time in which they expanded very rapidly and introduced lots of local Lomography stores worldwide. But that was a kind of "Strohfeuer" / Strawfire / Flash in the pan.
Because after 2012 that boom decreased almost as fast as it arosed, and almost all of their local stores for example are meanwhile either closed or sold.
If you now look at sales data of big(ger) national and international film distributors, then you'll see that Lomography type products are a very small niche, and definitely not dominant in the film photography market.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning, you are, unfortunately, taking my comment too literally. It's not specifically or only Lomo, but rather substandard, "cool," inaccurate color negative films that I was awkwardly attempting to describe. They're sold by multiple manufacturers (confectioners?) and appear to be highly successful with HARMAN Phoenix's target market.

AnselMortensen · Dec 3, 2023

mshchem said:
If Harman wants to sell film to Us crazy people, they could make "Limited Edition" HP5 in 220.

Yes, please!

pbromaghin · Dec 3, 2023

Ten301 said:
I wish Harman well. Phoenix isn’t for me, just as many of the offbeat Lomo films aren’t my thing. If people want to buy it, by all means, do so. I choose not to buy a film I have no use for and will never use. When Harman does reach a level of quality with Phoenix in the ballpark of a Kodak or Fuji product, I will certainly buy it and support them.

But that’s not what you said. Instead you dumped all over them for having the gall to pay for their R&D by selling it. The old film world is gone forever. This is the way it’s going to be

Ten301 · Dec 3, 2023

pbromaghin said:
But that’s not what you said. Instead you dumped all over them for having the gall to pay for their R&D by selling it. The old film world is gone forever. This is the way it’s going to be

For me, personally, speaking only for myself, yes, I will figuratively “dump all over” Harman, but I also wish them well on their endeavor. I choose not to pay for their R&D by buying a half-baked, inferior product from them when I can buy a far superior product from Kodak or Fuji for less. If others choose to do the opposite, that of course is their choice.

A little perspective here, please. On this thread I’ve read ridiculous accolades used such as “miracle” concerning the time frame Harman and their relatively tiny staff have gotten even this far with Phoenix. Miracle? Is a light going to shine down from Heaven on Harman HQ with choirs of angels bursting into song? We’re talking film here, not curing cancer. I’m a cancer survivor, and film doesn’t rate high on the “miracle” scale, sorry.

I’m sure Phoenix will be improved but, until it is, I (personally) have no use for it and refuse to feel guilty for not supporting Harman by buying a film that I will not use. I use several of their other films, and will continue to support them in that manner.

mshchem · Dec 3, 2023

For Ilford films to continue to flourish, Harman Phoenix and more needed to happen. Folks that shoot film and get it processed and scanned will gravitate to color. Hopefully they continue on to experience B&W and maybe even develop and print. Who knows.

Dustin McAmera · Dec 4, 2023

This thread (I guess I mean the 'other' thread) was more fun before we knew what we were getting, when the sparring pundits were leavened with speculation and daft jokes. I suppose that thread got a bit grumpy too sometimes.

At Flickr, I see this set by Hamish Gill, which has a rather nice (I think - suits the subjects) orange-and-green look:

Harman Phoenix 200

Explore this photo album by Hamish_Gill on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

I can't immediately see any notes of how he's developed it though, or what speed he rated it at.

There's also this set by Alex Doran: two rolls, and he's used a Bellini C41 kit. The colours are completely different, and more variable within the set.

Harman Phoenix 200

Explore this photo album by Alex Doran on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

I also found a few photos by Mark Dalzell which are rather red-pink-and-blue. He used a Film Photo Project ECN-2/C41 kit. He hasn't made them into a set: the link is to his whole stream:

Mark Dalzell

Explore Mark Dalzell’s 11,871 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

I got comfortable with using Tetenal C41 kits, but it's been a while. Not sure if I have a kit in the cupboard anyway. I'm half inclined to send mine to Harman Lab. If anyone knows how to do it, it should be them, eh? First, I need to shoot some. But looking at Flickr hasn't really left me much the wiser as to what to expect.

albireo · Dec 4, 2023

Kyle McDougall, a Canadian youtuber based I think in Wales, has some interesting samples on his Instagram page. The colours he's getting in the dim British Autumn light via his custom scanning workflow (which is well documented on his youtube channel) are I think much better than other stuff I've seen - with some looking almost Eggleston-esque.

I maintain we haven't even begun to see the potential of this film in the hands of creatives and people with real interest in the craft and art of film photography. @brbo I have seen the beautiful work you do with scanned film on your flickr page - I look forward to your impressions on this.

Agulliver · Dec 4, 2023

@Ten301 I am so dreadfully sorry that Harman peed in your cornflakes.

Honestly, while I was one of those who was expecting a more perfected product and ended up being wrong, I see why they're doing this. They need to sell the first usable colour film to the public in order to pay for the R&D costs they already ploughed into the project. And it is a freaking miracle that they got from where they were to Phoenix in 12 months. That is an achievement never before made in the entire history of the photographic film industry. Maybe that specific word "miracle" rubs you up the wrong way but they've done something nobody else has ever done. And I believe they should be applauded for that and encouraged to continue in their endeavours to make better colour film.

The kicker is, without selling Phoenix, there will ne no more colour film from Harman.

Ten301 · Dec 4, 2023

Agulliver said:
@Ten301 I am so dreadfully sorry that Harman peed in your cornflakes.

Honestly, while I was one of those who was expecting a more perfected product and ended up being wrong, I see why they're doing this. They need to sell the first usable colour film to the public in order to pay for the R&D costs they already ploughed into the project. And it is a freaking miracle that they got from where they were to Phoenix in 12 months. That is an achievement never before made in the entire history of the photographic film industry. Maybe that specific word "miracle" rubs you up the wrong way but they've done something nobody else has ever done. And I believe they should be applauded for that and encouraged to continue in their endeavours to make better colour film.

The kicker is, without selling Phoenix, there will ne no more colour film from Harman.

I’ve said repeatedly that I wish Harman well, and I don’t doubt that creating a new color film from nothing is difficult for any film company, especially one traditionally known for black & white.

That being said, I’m sorry but I cannot look at the results thus far and go all fanboy with terms like “miracle”, although we could summon the Catholic Church to Mobberley to investigate. To Harman’s credit, they make no secret in writing, in case you believe your eyes are deceiving you, that Phoenix is pretty bad at this stage. Harman, a for profit company, present their warted frog, ask you to pay very near-Ektar/Portra and well beyond Gold prices to kiss it, so they, a for profit company, can fund their R&D to make more profit on an improved version.

So, there you have it. Soiled cornflakes aside, that is why I choose not to purchase this iteration of Phoenix. If it were far enough along to be usable to me as a finished product, as was Adox Color Mission, I would happily buy Phoenix. At this stage, however, the ‘Miracle of Mobberley’ (cue the choir of angels) is not.

tykos · Dec 4, 2023

Ten301 said:
I’ve said repeatedly that I wish Harman well, and I don’t doubt that creating a new color film from nothing is difficult for any film company, especially one traditionally known for black & white.

We have a market crazy for colour film, with portra/gold/colorplus at times unavailable from the main stores because people buy it all on the day it is listed (more 1-2 years ago than now, but ok).
Now a lad on photrio says that developing a new colour film is a trivial task.
Why did harman waited all this time to start producing it? And why didn't they produce a better portra, given the task is so easy?

maybe they need to find new business consultants here on photrio?

koraks · Dec 4, 2023

tykos said:
Now a lad on photrio says that developing a new colour film is a trivial task.

I don't think anyone on this forum has ever implied such a thing. Certainly not the person you responded to.

Also, please keep the discussion respectful.

pentaxuser · Dec 4, 2023

albireo said:
Kyle McDougall, a Canadian youtuber based I think in Wales, has some interesting samples on his Instagram page. The colours he's getting in the dim British Autumn light via his custom scanning workflow (which is well documented on his youtube channel) are I think much better than other stuff I've seen - with some looking almost Eggleston-esque.

I maintain we haven't even begun to see the potential of this film in the hands of creatives and people with real interest in the craft and art of film photography. @brbo I have seen the beautiful work you do with scanned film on your flickr page - I look forward to your impressions on this.

Thanks for the pics. It is difficult to imagine that this door trim is anything like a metallic blue colour or the surface on which the cars are parked. It just looks wrong to me and if this is the best reproduction of colours that can be produced with the current edition then it is not for me. If Phoenix C41 remains largely this way then fine and I hope that this meets what it seems the Harman view of the target market is but I'll never want to buy it

What I have written above does not pass any judgement on Harman's efforts etc In fact saying what your decision is based on is what you see of the film has no connection to effort, spirit etc Well not from where I am standing

pentaxuser

Henning Serger · Dec 4, 2023

Sal Santamaura said:
Henning, you are, unfortunately, taking my comment too literally. It's not specifically or only Lomo, but rather substandard, "cool," inaccurate color negative films that I was awkwardly attempting to describe. They're sold by multiple manufacturers (confectioners?) and appear to be highly successful with HARMAN Phoenix's target market.

Sal, even if I extend the consideration in the direction you are describing above, it will not change the result significantly:
The market segment you are describing is generally a small niche, and not more than 5-6% of the total market volume. Just ask your preferred distributors how many Redscale, Dubblefilm etc. they are selling......
The huge majority of customers is going for the standard, established (amateur) CN films.

Best regards,
Henning

First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

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