First attempt at black and white reversal

Third attempt/roll developed last night. I used the benzotriazole with a new mix of PQ concentrate and the brown tone in the film is still there. I am thinking on either cutting or totally removing the potassium bromide in hoping to bring the tone to neutral. I will keep updated.

On a side note: I used regular, constant, inversion with the bleach this time

I don't know if you'll find this technical document, KODAK T-MAX 100 Direct Positive Film Developing Outfit J-87, helpful to get neutral tone, but it makes some interesting points:

In the section Adjusting Image Tone, it says "to obtain a more neutral image tone in processed films, you can treat slides with KODAK Brown Toner." This is interesting because a direct Sulphide toner is known to warm the tone and probably implies that the default tone from Kodak's reversal kit is somewhat on the colder side.

In the section Adjusting Contrast, it says "you cannot adjust the contrast of slides produced with reversal processing by changing the development time or temperature (as you can in normal processing of black-and-white negative films). Adjusting the development time or temperature will affect only the minimum and maximum densities and effective film speed."

Interestingly, the recommended EI for normal contrast in reversal applications is 50.

One thing that may have been covered, you MUST consider use a 3200k lamp. Any (ANY) blue wavelength light seriously runs the risk of solarisation. We've done hundreds and hundreds of rolls and learnt the hard way early on - its rated at 3200k re exposure to specifically avoid solarisation.

Anyway, sounds like you are having fun so welcome to the world of BW Reversal!!!

@Raghu Kuvempunagar: Sounds like that Kodak kit is the 180 opposite of my situation. Blue toned or just cool, I wonder. I remember that kit in the 90s but never gave it a shot for some reason. If I was to aim for E.I. 50 I might have to reduce the first developer by about 1:30 to 2:00. It could work.

@PolyFilmLabs: The bulb is rated at 2700K, slightly more orange. Soft white, 60 watt, 800 lumens. Many have warned not to do the re-exposure outside. A lot of blue there..

What About Bob said:

Sounds like that Kodak kit is the 180 opposite of my situation. Blue toned or just cool, I wonder.

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Is it possible that the infamous TMax purple antihalation dye didnt fully clear after fixing?

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:

Is it possible that the infamous TMax purple antihalation dye didnt fully clear after fixing?

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With that in mind: Out of curiosity I went to a site that has a color wheel and I came across something that is making me think. I put in a color that is close to what the dye would look like on T-Max film and then clicked for the compliment color and got pretty darn close to the very same tint that my reversal processed film resembles: Brownish! I was of the thought that the bleach or the clearing bath would be able to take out that dye but from what I just saw from the color example I don't know. I don't know if there is any correlation between the dye and my own results. Is the dye removed, is it being masked, is the bleaching or something else taking the place of where the dye was or am I thinking way out to planet Jupiter?

Maybe there is something to this? Maybe this is the nature of using this combination of development process and type of film or something could be off with my routine. I have thought about bleach issues, washing enough in between the bleach and clearing, am I clearing long enough, is the second development long enough. I read that dichromate tans things such as wood. Does the same apply for films?

Before all of this: I was going to either go with another developer recipe or mix one more batch of PQ concentrate and this time without the potassium bromide in hopes to reduce some warmth. This will make me need to do more exposure testing because the shadows, my guess, are probably going to get more opened Adding benzotriazole isn't phasing the results of the tone but it is starting to show some contrast boost. If I go more with it I might be heading into lith territory. I will be the first on my block to be able to process brown tinted lith transparencies, lol.

I was thinking of going with a variant of the D-19 recipe or Dektol (D-72), grain would be enhanced with D-72 but only for the first development so after the second development the image should look finer, if my thinking is correct.

I am enjoying this process. I think soon I could qualify as a mad chemist, lol.

Update: I know this is black and white film and complimentary colors technically wouldn't apply. I'm just throwing possibilities out there. It is surprising to me seeing the color examples of the purple and the brownish tint.

A couple of last questions before you become a mad chemist.

Do you see any tint in the film during the second light exposure?

In Light pad example 2 that you shared in OP, edge markings seem to have a brownish tint which makes me ask this: is there any tint in the clear regions of the film after the final wash?

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:

A couple of last questions before you become a mad chemist.

Do you see any tint in the film during the second light exposure?

In Light pad example 2 that you shared in OP, edge markings seem to have a brownish tint which makes me ask this: is there any tint in the clear regions of the film after the final wash?

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Yes the film was tinted somewhat every time when under the bulb for re-exposure. The last time there were almost strong images showing on it? On the very first attempt the images were faint and then they were slowing coming up. The bleach is still orange colored. On one bleaching run I did try up to 5:00 and the result was the same as for 3:00

Updated: That would be a yes on the clear parts being tinted.

The edge lettering looks to be on the dull side.

Thanks for checking and confirming. Assuming the bleach worked perfectly, which I have no reason to doubt in the present case, the clear regions of the slide have no silver in them. So the tint seen in such regions can't be due to the structure of silver grain and no modification to the restrainer is going to help in getting rid of the tint.

There is some possibility that the tint is due to chromium compounds that may have formed during bleaching. But such compounds are removed by the fixer which also removes the anti-halation dyes. You may want to fix a slide again and see if the tint goes away.

Project them, and see if you even notice the tint.

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:

There is some possibility that the tint is due to chromium compounds that may have formed during bleaching. But such compounds are removed by the fixer which also removes the anti-halation dyes. You may want to fix a slide again and see if the tint goes away.

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I used Hypam for 5:00 when I was processing them. Should I be giving more time? If I refix and rewash the strip I'll have to figure out how to clip it to hang dry.

MattKing said:

Project them, and see if you even notice the tint.

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I don't have a projector but I did shine a flashlight through the strip onto a white wall and the tint shows up.

Could I use a stronger clearing bath? I used a recipe that called for 50 grams of sulfite per liter. There was another one that called for 90 grams of sulfite. I used the former recipe. I went by the 1:00 guideline for clearing.

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:

Thanks for checking and confirming. Assuming the bleach worked perfectly, which I have no reason to doubt in the present case, the clear regions of the slide have no silver in them. So the tint seen in such regions can't be due to the structure of silver grain and no modification to the restrainer is going to help in getting rid of the tint.

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That makes sense. This puts me at ease and saving me from removing this and adding that with the PQ. Thanks, Raghu.

What About Bob said:

I don't have a projector but I did shine a flashlight through the strip onto a white wall and the tint shows up.

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If you did, and projected the film, you might be surprised how quickly you would adapt to the tint, and either not notice it, or barely notice it.

What About Bob said:

I used Hypam for 5:00 when I was processing them. Should I be giving more time? If I refix and rewash the strip I'll have to figure out how to clip it to hang dry.


Could I use a stronger clearing bath? I used a recipe that called for 50 grams of sulfite per liter. There was another one that called for 90 grams of sulfite. I used the former recipe. I went by the 1:00 guideline for clearing.

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I would refix the current slides for 5-10 minutes to confirm that the tint goes away before extending the fixing time or using a stronger clearing bath for future rolls.

OK I will give it a shot. I will do this in a tray, fix, rewash and photo-flo. I'll be back.

PolyFilmLabs said:

One thing that may have been covered, you MUST consider use a 3200k lamp. Any (ANY) blue wavelength light seriously runs the risk of solarisation. We've done hundreds and hundreds of rolls and learnt the hard way early on - its rated at 3200k re exposure to specifically avoid solarisation.

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That‘s interesting. I‘ve never heard of this before, can you give some more detail on what happened?

I used Tungsten light for many years when developing Kodak Super8 film. Recently I switched over to a daylight balanced LED film light and haven‘t really seen any problems.

I gave 10 minutes of refixing with Hypam rapid fix followed by a 10 minute washing and then photo-flo. No change at all. No idea.

Update:
I do have potassium permanganate on hand. I bought a small bottle of it before I bought the dichromate. I could use the permanganate for the next roll, fourth attempt, to see how things turn out. If things turn out neutral then the issue would point to the dichromate bleach.

Thing is I don't have a hardener. Many suggested to cut the permanganate by half to prevent potential damage to the film. I can use the sodium bisulfate stuff I used for the dichromate bleach.

Looking at MSDS of KODAK T-MAX 100 Direct Positive Film Developing Outfit, the bleach that came with the kit is Permanganate based. So, it might work well to get rid of the tint, who knows.

According to MSDS, the weight % of Potassium Permanganate in the bleach working solution is 0.1 - < 1. So this gives some idea of what strength bleach would be ideal.

Thanks for the MSDS sheet. Kodak shows more information than Ilford for this type of process. Ilford not having its own kit probably being the reason.

Ilford gives the recommendation of 4 grams of permanganate to a lite of water and 10ml of concentrated sulfuric acid or 100ml of a 10% solution of sulfuric acid to 400ml of water. Because of the high chance of the film being softened a good deal many have recommended to go with 2 grams of permanganate. The amount of bisulfate needed for this I calculated to be around 44.2 grams per liter of water, 4.42 grams of bisulfate being equal to 1 ml of concentrated sulfuric acid. 44.2 grams of bisulfate seems like a lot just for a one-shot deal with the bleach.

I will give this a try on the next run.

What About Bob said:

Kodak shows more information than Ilford for this type of process.

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Yes, it is interesting to note the similarities and differences in the processing instructions. Kodak gives bleach times at 25 C as well unlike Ilford which could be due to the lower strength bleach used in Kodak kit and the robustness of TMax films.

I have two small bottles of PQ concentrate. The first bottle was made two weeks ago and is slightly tinted pink and doesn't contain benzotriazole. The second bottle developer is not tinted pink and does contain benzotriazole. Is the pink tint indicative of oxidation or because benzotriazole was left out from that batch? When I mixed the PQ with water the last few times the tint was a slight yellow color.

Sign of oxidation. No idea if Benzotriazole acts also as an antioxidant. Were both bottles full to the brim?

First 500ml bottle with the pink tint is about 1/3rd full, good for one more run. The second 500ml bottle with no pink tint is 2/3rd full, good for two more runs.

I am a little stuck on whether to use from first or second bottle, one with BZT and the other one without it.

I would avoid using the pink developer for first development at least. It might work for the second development with extended development times depending on its activity level. You should do a clip test and check if the film turns very dark.