Fine Art Nude Group

TheFlyingCamera

I'd offer the idea of taking a nude photography and/or drawing class as part of a group BEFORE trying to do it on your own - nude photography is not a natural activity for most of us, and trying to do it the first time without guidance of a more seasoned artist is daunting at the least, and perilous/traumatic at the worst. That said, it is totally worthwhile, and if you can get over the initial hurdles, kinda addictive.

As to techniques you can practice without a live model, one thing you can do is start off REALLY basic - after all, just as there is only one sun, start your lighting practice with a single light. Go out and get yourself one of those little poseable wooden mannequins art students buy to learn anatomical proportion. Set it up with a single light source (a cheap gooseneck desk lamp makes a perfectly acceptable studio light for a subject like that). Move the mannequin around in different poses. Adjust the position of the light relative to the mannequin - higher/lower/closer/further. Try adding in some diffusion - put a piece of paper or fabric between the mannequin and the light source (keep it a safe distance from the light - you don't want to burn down the house while you're learning). Vary the distance between the light and the diffusion, and the diffusion and the model, to see how all these things affect the appearance of your subject.
 

TheFlyingCamera

Dennis -

To address your question about why people pull work from the gallery:

among other reasons, there is a limit to the number of images one can post, so some folks pull stuff to be able to rotate new work in. I pulled a large body of my nudes from the gallery here after yet another round of rather contentious discussions about nudes because I was tired of certain attitudes, specifically that Helmut Newton-esque erotica was AOK, but the male figure was offensive, even in non-erotic poses/lighting.

As to gallery moderation, there is none. The only time I'm aware of that management has done anything regarding an image posted to the galleries was the time someone posted an image displaying nazi symbols, and then it was only to ask the individual to reconsider the appropriateness of his image. He was not forced to remove the image.
 

Ian Leake

Dustin - another suggestion for when you're looking for a model is to accept the cost of hiring an experienced model rather than doing it on the cheap. A good model will be able to work with you rather than require direction. Some models are also photographers - in fact one of the models I've worked with a few times knows enough about lighting to teach it. So talk things through with the model (don't pretend to be an expert if you're not) and if they're any good then they'll be able to help you. I don't know where you are but if you're in the UK I'm more than happy to recommend some models.
 

monkeykoder

Sadly I'm across the pond (and the entire rest of the continent) from the UK... There are some disadvantages to living in California (aside from the annoyingly hot summers at least away from the coast). I was once hoping I'd be able to take a nude photography class at one of the local colleges but sadly they are not offered in my region. Even to get a portrait photography class I have to go to a different school than the one I'm currently attending (back over to where I did my lower division coursework for my major). It is sort of sad that I can't even take the intermediate B&W class or a color photography class (that isn't the accursed boring format) without being a photography major.
 

TheFlyingCamera

Dustin-

A definite source for models in your area are model/photographer websites, like ModelMayhem. They list a wide range of models throughout the country, plenty in California, and you can search the site for models within a certain geographic radius of your zip code. I get out to the San Fran/Sacramento area on average once a year, if that's anywhere close to you, the next time I'm out if I have a shoot scheduled, you're welcome to come along and assist to learn about the process.
 

monkeykoder

Not far away at all (I guess San Fran is about 2hrs but Sacramento is 0min...) I'd love to see how it all works before trying it myself. I'm sure I have a long way to go with lighting until I'm ready to reliably produce results.
 

Akki14

This is actually quite a useful discussion for me as I have very little studio skills even though I've worked on two nude model shoots so far. I'm definitely going to take some time to play with my lights when I get them...
 

monkeykoder

Yeah the hard part is figuring out what lights I'm going to need when I'm ready (probably needed before I'm ready to get a feel for them). Are there any other good ways to watch someone in action working with a model (other than classes and generous offers from apugers)?
 

TheFlyingCamera

There are lots and I mean LOTS of videos out there, both online and for sale as hardcopies that show photographers working with models. The problem with many of them is that they will assume a certain basic knowledge of lighting techniques, and they'll talk in professional jargon that will be confusing to the newbie - "put the scrim next to the gobo, and don't forget to grid your hairlight!"(HUH???? should be your reaction to that if you're not familiar with the terminology). There are also some good basic books out there with lighting setups diagrammed for the example photos. You might try taking a look at some of those at your local Borders/Barnes & Noble.

As to lights, RENT RENT RENT before you buy anything. It will help you get a feel for what you need without tying up a huge investment in gear that will most likely be wrong for you if you buy before you try.
 

monkeykoder

Sadly I'm relatively familiar with the lighting terms (scrim I'm not sure about...) Without having any lights (or much money) to work with I've been pretty much stuck to reading about lighting (Strobist mainly I figure most of what he covers will be useful no matter what I use for lights).
 

Ian Leake

Photography is a craft - it requires practice in the real world. While books and videos may be able to teach theory, they can't teach how to see, or how to work with a model, or how to turn theoretical knowledge into practical ability. So get out there, use what you have to hand, and make some pictures.
 

monkeykoder

Yeah looks like I'm in for the three step process Step 1 Find model take lots of pictures Step 2 ... Step 3 Profit. There is only so much work to do on people photography without a model. On the plus side I know 2/5 of my cameras really well and 3/5 are relatively new and not really for the model photography part.
 

Akki14

As far as lighting, this is my ghetto lighting plan http://www.shuttertalk.com/articles/diylighting I've purchased a similar double-light system, comes with tripod and 500watt bulbs for £27 from Axminster Power Tools... just waiting for them to arrive in the next few days. I have to look at hot lights/continuous lighting because otherwise I'd have to start looking at a different camera as my Top Handle Speed Graphic is too ancient to have any flash sync.

Changing topic, How many of you would be willing to exhibit (fine art)nude self portraits? I'm thinking my biggest problem with it would be meeting people from APUG and then thinking oh hey you've seen me naked already. Otherwise I think I could do it. Actually I'm looking at some polaroids I just did of myself and they look kind of cool but I'm so limited without a cable release or selftimer for the SX-70.
 

TheFlyingCamera

Hmmmm.... self-nudes? I've got such a messed-up body image that I'm just not comfortable nude in front of the camera. I ALMOST did some during my John Dugdale seminar, because he made me feel so comfortable. Had he wanted to shoot me nude, I'd have said yes. There's something about the idea of posing for a famous blind photographer that is rather relaxing. And then at the end of the session, he posed nude himself for an annual self-portrait that he does. So kinda hard to say no when your teacher gets naked in front of the entire class. I did pose shirtless, which was a major accomplishment for me.
 

Akki14

Y'know, I thought I had a messed up body image thing in my head but then I realised I can make myself pretty by using the infamous MySpace angle of foreshortening my huge belly.

Though I guess these pictures are technically no longer "nudes" by some definitions as it has a recognisable face engaging the viewer.
 

monkeykoder

What are the thoughts on purchasing something along the lines of Dead Link Removed and when upgrading using it as a hair or other low watt-second application. Or is Dead Link Removed the absolute minimum to go for in said scenario? I'm thinking I have a long way to go lighting wise until working with a professional model would be cost effective. As for the nude self portraits I would feel rather uncomfortable posting that on an open forum unless I figured out a way to make photography a well paying (read sole source of income) profession.
 

Ian Leake

I've made nude self portraits on a number of occasions, Heather, but these are definitely not for public consumption. I'm not sure that I can think of a faster way to get fired from work other than inviting one of the boss's daughters into my studio perhaps!
 

TheFlyingCamera

Dustin-

both links point to the same item. It will function. What camera are you shooting with? 35mm? If you're going to shoot with anyting bigger, those lights will NOT be adequate. They're barely adequate for 35mm. 100 w/s is fine for on-camera, as the distances they cover are relatively short, and you are using no modifiers with them.

One thing you'll quickly want to do is use modifiers with your studio strobe system. Make sure that whatever you get A: has modifiers available, and B: has a variety of them. I realize they're a bit more expensive, but I'd look into some lights that use the Bowens mount (either made by Bowens/Calumet or cheap chinese knockoffs using the bayonet mount under license). Another system worth looking into are Speedotron "brown line" systems. They can be found quite cheaply, there are a ton of accessories out there for them, and they'll last FOREVER.

Take a look on the B&H, Adorama and Calumet websites to compare some options, then check Ebay for second-hand pricing.
 

TheFlyingCamera

Heather- why does having the subject facing the viewer no longer make it a nude? The only person I've ever heard of making that distinction is that um, offbeat, person Curtis Neeley.

Btw- I really like yours. Very good!
 

monkeykoder

So what would be the recommended minimum for strobes for 35mm? I figure when starting a new style of photography 35mm is probably second cheapest and of course much more interesting than the cheapest. Looking at Alien Bees it seems their smallest strobe is about equivalent power to the second one I listed (link fixed). Would I have to go with the AB800 to get enough power to even think about doing 4x5 later on or would I need even more?
 

Ian Leake

Dustin - you may get a wider amount of input if you post your question in the lighting forum

Heather - I didn't see your photos earlier - very good! But didn't you say you lacked studio space ;-) Seems like you've got plenty...

Scott - You've reminded me that it must be time for APUG's annual 'offbeat' nudes fight
 

Akki14

Scott - It's just something I've heard, it's probably akin to "it's not art unless it's B&W"

Ian - I think modeling on a bed has a certain "sleaze" aspect especially if you're inviting models over... It's okay because it's my bed and it's me.

Hey I'm all for making offbeat nudes... unfortunately my japanese rope bondage photos didn't freak out the population as much as I'd like.
 

TheFlyingCamera

Dustin - again, this is why I suggest you RENT something before you buy - get a feel for what works for you. Conventional wisdom suggests that you want at least 400 ws per head for 4x5, because to get the same depth of field you'll need more power, as at any given f-stop, a larger format lens has shallower depth of field than a smaller format lens (due to focal length... a 150mm lens will have less depth of field than a 50mm lens will, at f8, for example). However, you may find that you like shooting wide open, and can get away with less power. Or you may find that you want to shoot stopped down all the way all the time, so you really need 1600 ws of power, not 200. Take an afternoon, drive down to San Francisco and go talk to the rental folks at Calumet, or boogie on down to Palo Alto and go pester the folks at Keeble & Shuchat for more info. They can arrange a hands-on demo with this stuff. Bear in mind that you're going to have to get a flash meter as well. You may want to start with hot lights and your 35mm, since they cost less, and you can learn well from them because they're truly WYSWIG. Then when you're ready to go to strobes, you'll have a much better idea of what you need in a light.
 

TheFlyingCamera

Ian- how so? with my male nudes I posted here? I've got some fun ones coming up if I can just get models in to the studio. I'm working on my "commodities" series which should have people getting a bit of a chuckle as well as feeling uncomfortable.
 
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