Film revival

[brofkand]

Nikon makes the F6; Canon the 1v. Cosina makes the FM10, Vivitar V3800N, and several rangefinders under different names.

Those of us who want new cameras can buy the above mentioned models. Several other models are available as New Old Stock (the F100, Canon Rebel T2, Pentax MZ-S, MZ-7, ist, among others) at least occasionally. I'd love to buy a NOS F100; such a great camera.

I even see AE-1's and FG's available as NOS every once in a while on eBay, when a camera store closes or refreshes stock and they find one in the back closet.

These new and NOS cameras command a premium. For example, the F100 NOS from B&H is $700. They go for around $200 in good used condition. I doubt the market will bear a $500 premium, and the scale at which film cameras need to be produced (maybe a truck load a month) means the cost is impossible to reach.

Supply and demand. Demand may be higher than it was in 2004, but it's still too low for the Supply-Demand chart to meet in the middle and offer consumers (and manufacturers) new film cameras at bearable prices, at least for the mass market. The best proof of this is in Impossible film and Lomo cameras. Lomo builds cameras like the LC-A (mediocre point and shoot 35mm camera) and sells them for $300. Impossible has re-created integral film and charges $30 for 8 shots. The demand isn't there for them to be able to ramp up supply to get cost down, especially when you can buy a Nikon point-and-shoot 35mm camera for $5 on eBay.

You could argue that Lomo (and perhaps Impossible as well) positions itself as a couture brand and thus can command inflated prices, but I would think at least part of their high cost is the fact that tooling and factory time is expensive (and essentially a fixed cost) and must be amortized over the production run, and with smaller production runs they sell the LC-A at $30.

 

[lxdude]

I would be surprised if all the tooling for these basic mechanical cameras has been lost or destroyed.

I would be surprised if it were not. The way that bean-counters these days look at such things as cost per unit of floor space, things don't get stuck away somewhere the way they used to. And major camera makers make so many more models than they used to in any given span of time, each with at least some unique tooling, and the requirement to provide spare parts after the model run is finished.
Also, not all tooling just gets scrapped-stamping fixtures for instance are often reworked to make something else. Molds are designed for projected runs and eventually wear out. If a mold can be made of aluminum instead of tool steel it's much cheaper and faster to build. It just won't be able to make as many parts. If a model sells much better than expected another aluminum mold can be made.
As I stated above, (this according to Nikon), when they designed the FM3A, they had to buy a used FE2 so they could see how to make the meter coil properly, as they could no longer readily source what they needed. The FM3A came out in 2001; the FE2 ended production in 1987. That's only 14 years.

 

[lxdude]

I have to agree with you. If Nikon released an updated version of their F5...perhaps with AF (if it didn't have it originally) there are a lot of people who would buy it.

What is "a lot"? And what sort of people? The F5 is big, heavy and fast, best suited to the exact type of professional who abandoned film first.
And yes, the F5 has AF.

 

[PhotoJim]

What is "a lot"? And what sort of people? The F5 is big, heavy and fast, best suited to the exact type of professional who abandoned film first.
And yes, the F5 has AF.

I love my F5, and I don't mind that it's big and heavy because of how good it is. But as an amateur film shooter, while I can and did pay $400 to get a really nice used F5, I certainly wouldn't spend $2,000 or more to buy a new one - at least not yet.

I think a lot of film shooters are like me. The only new cameras I've bought in the last five years were my DSLR (which I only got last month) and my Shen Hao 4x5. Any 35mm cameras I've gotten in that span have all been used because the used prices are so attractive. The reality right now is that I could wear out half a dozen bodies and still have more than enough to do what I need to do.

 

[Photo-gear]

I love my F5, and I don't mind that it's big and heavy because of how good it is. But as an amateur film shooter, while I can and did pay $400 to get a really nice used F5, I certainly wouldn't spend $2,000 or more to buy a new one - at least not yet.

I think a lot of film shooters are like me. The only new cameras I've bought in the last five years were my DSLR (which I only got last month) and my Shen Hao 4x5. Any 35mm cameras I've gotten in that span have all been used because the used prices are so attractive. The reality right now is that I could wear out half a dozen bodies and still have more than enough to do what I need to do.

Instead of making F5s or F6s, Nikon should start over with F100s or a new version, let's say F200 ! Less expensive than the previous ones and still attractive.

 

[Dismayed]

Guys, no digital camera manufacturer (Nikon, Canon) is going to release a new film camera, ever. The entire MO of the digital stuff is to keep people on the upgrade train. It's no longer about cameras and instead about electronics (computers). They're not going to release something that will self-cannibalize their cash cow and get people out of the buy-use-trash mentality. It makes them too much money.

There's a reason people are still using Nikon F, F2s, and whatever else today, because nothing needs to be changed. When the mindset changed from servicing well made products to producing consumptive products the game was over.

That being said, it doesn't mean one cannot successfully use film cameras it just means the big producers aren't going to be creating new technology that can be reused for 50 years (a deeper problem, itself).

And no major company would ever release a rangefinder camera. Oh, wait! Nikon released the SP and S3 a few years ago.

 

[lxdude]

Instead of making F5s or F6s, Nikon should start over with F100s or a new version, let's say F200 ! Less expensive than the previous ones and still attractive.

It won't be cheaper than the $700 B+H is asking for brand new F100's, which they still have 6 years after it was discontinued. F100's had cost much more than that when they were in production, but B+H knows what they can get for them now. Nikon couldn't make and sell a camera of the F100's quality and sophistication for $700.

Even a converted digital body would require development and new design, which is not cheap. Is there any market, given that the admirable F100 is still available new, and at what would have been a fantastic price more a decade ago?

 

[Chan Tran]

I have a few 35mm cameras including the Nikon FM, F3HP and F5. I don't feel I want another new Nikon at all. I do feel I want some older Nikon like an F2AS and may be a version of the F. I have no fear of running out of cameras, I do fear however that I might run out of film and chemical to process them with.

 

[cepwin]

I'm just the opposite Chan. I'm more concerned the prices for good film cameras will keep getting higher as they're more difficult to find but so long as they can sell film someone will be making it (the "impossible project" with Polaroid film is an example) and the chemistry to go along with it. Of course, there are resourceful folks in APUG who will make their own emulsions if they can't get what they need any other way

 

[Graham_Martin]

Since I will be moving to Jax next year, (my wife is a native) it's good to hear that I won't have left the center of the universe for a barren outer planet. LOL! Kidding of course...but only by a bit if I gave into my worst fears. There used to be a wonderful camera store in Jacksonville (I've forgotten the name) and when it closed I was very sad. They carried film, paper and chemicals, and I would have been happy to patronize them rather than order on line. So your news is good news to me.

Your are probably thinking of Orben's Camera in the old San Marco area. One of the former owners is a member of the Jacksonville Camera Club. I see that you are in Monroe, NY. Back in the 70's my wife and I lived in Middletown. Drop me a PM and let me know when you will be moving down here.

 

[Roger Cole]

Look, if there is demand, they will make them. It's as simple as that. Right now the demand can be met with used gear that is still, compared to what it cost new and compared to the latest whizbang DSLRs (but not the low end ones, necessarily) in real terms pretty darned cheap. As folks have pointed out there are still new 35mm SLRs available as well as medium format cameras (a few) and all the large format you could want, the latter for bargain prices new compared to equally good cameras some years back.

The thing is, I doubt a new design would be something like an F100. People shooting film want to go back to an older technology and simpler approach anyway. If tooling is lost others can be designed and manufactured using modern methods. In fact I'd think this would be more likely, for cost savings, even if the tooling hasn't been lost. It's not rocket science. It's not even rocket age science.

 

[mhanc]

I think Leica has built a good business model to support ongoing film camera manufacturing. They are now basically a lens and digital camera company. The also make film camera bodies for their M lenses. From what I understand they manufacture film bodies based upon demand and spare factory capacity. Zeiss/Cosina/Voitlander has the somewhat similar models.

The common thread here is that lenses from these companies do not have any electronics in them, thereby, providing great flexibility in camera body design. I would think it might be hard for companies like Nikon or Cannon to adopt something similar given their current product line.

 

[Vanishing Point Ent.]

Film is NOT a Four-Letter Word !

You know the funny thing is, since I've discovered the remarkable
Contax G2 w Zeiss lenses, ( especially the 28 & 21 mm Biogons ),
I have no need for a digital camera at all, because with the lack of
distortion produced by the Biogons, I can get an image look, that
NO Digital camera, nor Photoshop program or Inaction can produce.

So much so, that I went and added a Voigtlander Bessa L with a pair
of Ultrawides, ( the 12 & 15 mm LTM lenses. ) !

I am more than pleased.
I still have my Canon EOS systems, but I use them less & less.

But it's all still better than having to buy an all new camera, computer
hardware & software systems every year & a half.

 

[cepwin]

For curiosity sake I looked at the Cosina site which lead me to dealers who sell their cameras. A nice new 35mm is about the price of a lower end dslr. Once thing I came across with Leica....they have a Digital model that sells for $22k....I don't know who can even think of justifying a camera at that price????? (For that price it had better transmit the images automatically to my computer, make them perfect in LR4 and post them up to the desired locations and "tweet" that it's done so!!

 

[Chan Tran]

Film is NOT a Four-Letter Word !

You know the funny thing is, since I've discovered the remarkable
Contax G2 w Zeiss lenses, ( especially the 28 & 21 mm Biogons ),
I have no need for a digital camera at all, because with the lack of
distortion produced by the Biogons, I can get an image look, that
NO Digital camera, nor Photoshop program or Inaction can produce.

So much so, that I went and added a Voigtlander Bessa L with a pair
of Ultrawides, ( the 12 & 15 mm LTM lenses. ) !

I am more than pleased.
I still have my Canon EOS systems, but I use them less & less.

But it's all still better than having to buy an all new camera, computer
hardware & software systems every year & a half.

Sorry but FILM IS a 4 letter word! I don't think there is a need to introduce new film camera now. If film photography picks up and the old cameras run out then I am sure manufacturers will make them. I do agree with Roger that there are more likely that film users will want simpler cameras rather than the complex auto everything ones.

 

[Photo-gear]

For curiosity sake I looked at the Cosina site which lead me to dealers who sell their cameras. A nice new 35mm is about the price of a lower end dslr. Once thing I came across with Leica....they have a Digital model that sells for $22k....I don't know who can even think of justifying a camera at that price????? (For that price it had better transmit the images automatically to my computer, make them perfect in LR4 and post them up to the desired locations and "tweet" that it's done so!!

I wish I could have the Cosina link, so I could inquire by myself.

 

[Diapositivo]

http://www.cosina.co.jp/index.html
http://www.cosina.co.jp/seihin/voigt/english/index.html

 

[Vanishing Point Ent.]

Film is NOT a Four-Letter Word !

Sorry but FILM IS a 4 letter word !

You didn't get the double entendre'.

I don't think there is a need to introduce new film camera now.
If film photography picks up and the old cameras run out then I am sure manufacturers will
make them. I do agree with Roger that there are more likely that film users will want simpler
cameras rather than the complex auto everything ones.

35 mm film cameras will NEVER come back, ( except for maybe Leica & Voigtlander ),
due to the change in marketability, by the manufacturers, of their cameras.

Film cameras because of their long shelf & long use life, never had the sales of digital
cameras.
EX. How long was the Nikon F3 produced & how cherished is it today, STILL ?
They even tried to produce a Nikon F3 with AF !

When you can bring out a new body every 1.5 yrs, which then requires new computer
software & hardware, short-term profitability for camera manufacturers goes up.

THAT'S ALL THEY CARE ABOUT NOW !

 

[ME Super]

Sorry but FILM IS a 4 letter word! I don't think there is a need to introduce new film camera now. If film photography picks up and the old cameras run out then I am sure manufacturers will make them. I do agree with Roger that there are more likely that film users will want simpler cameras rather than the complex auto everything ones.

My present camera is an auto-everything Pentax film SLR. Do I use all that automatic stuff? No, not all of it. Not by a long shot. This baby has more modes than I'll ever use. I do use the AF most of the time because my eyes aren't what they used to be, but there are times when I turn it off (especially when it's blatantly obvious that the AF missed). Do I use the Auto exposure? Sure. But I seldom let the camera pick both the aperture and the shutter speed. I pick one, and let the camera pick the other, depending on the situation. And if I really want to, I can turn all the automation off with a button press and the flick of a dial.

I like that the automation is there if I want it, and when I don't want it, I can easily turn it off without going through a zillion menu items to do it.

 

[rolleiman]

The thuoght occurs to me that with Fuji (possibly) becoming the biggest world producer of film, they might think of producing a serious 35mm film camera? After all it couid be in their business interests to do so. They've already surprised everyone with the excellence of their "X series" digi rangefinders, which many think equals the M9 at a fraction of the price. Supposing they came up with film rangefinder to seriously rival Leica's M6..and at a third of the price!....Now wouln't that be something?

 

[Steve Smith]

Supposing they came up with film rangefinder to seriously rival Leica's M6..and at a third of the price

Not sure about 1/3 of the price, however... http://news.cnet.com/8301-13641_3-9863657-44.html

Introduced a few years ago.


Steve.

 

[rolleiman]

Not sure about 1/3 of the price, however... http://news.cnet.com/8301-13641_3-9863657-44.html

Introduced a few years ago.


Steve.

Yes, I know about their much heralded 6x7 folder. Haven't tried it myself, !but it has an excellent reputation. I was thinking along 35mm lines. Think what a successful film version of Fuji's X series digi cameras, could do for the same company's sales of Velvia!....Mutual benefit.

 

[Steve Smith]

Think what a successful film version of Fuji's X series digi cameras, could do for the same company's sales of Velvia!....Mutual benefit.

You are right that it's in their own interest to provide the tools to use their product. It's all down to demand though. Whilst there are many secondhand film cameras available as can be seen by looking at Ebay listings, the demand will be low. If this situation ever changes then perhaps Fujifilm will look into it.

They are receptive to customer requests. They brought back Velvia 50 after customer demand. The same is true of Kodak who originally planned Ektar 100 to be 35mm only but then due to demand, produced it in 120 and even more surprisingly, in 5x4 and 10x8.


Steve.

 

[rolleiman]

Yes, agreed, it's really up to us film users to keep badgering the relevant companies to produce products we want to use. I don't expect Fuji to think about producing a viable 35mm camera until possibly sometime in the future. As you say there's still a lot of s/h film bodies around in reasonable condition (which says something for the longevity of film cameras over digital). .......However, have you tried buying a decent used M6 or M4 lately for an affordable price?......Prices of all used "classic" models...e.g Nikon F, Leica M series, even the comparatively recent Voigtlander Bessas, are definitely on the rise.

 

[Diapositivo]

I don't know when it was launched, anyway Fujifilm launched for the sole Japanese market as far as I understand a compact film camera, Fujifilm Natura Classica, which is supposed to be mainly used with the film Natura Classica 1600. Above 800 ISO it has an NP mode (pure marketing stuff I did not even care about understanding what it is) which is supposed to be used with fast film.

I wish them very good luck, and I also think that, in a sense, they are doing the right thing in proposing film in low light situations.

http://microsites.lomography.com/fujinatura/about

PS I read somewhere that the maximum aperture is not very close, something f/8 or less, so with high ISO and full light the camera doesn't give much room for choices and risks overexposing.

PPS Forget the gallery, it is in pure crap style.