As a EK retiree, I certainly can find lots of things not to like about it's management over the last 25 years. However, NOTHING they could have done would have had much effect on slowing the conversion to digital and loss of film sales - especially in the consumer marketplace. 25 years ago, who could have imagined the quality of the digital cameras in our cel phones.
Film from Italy -- Ferrania starting production 2014
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As a EK retiree, I certainly can find lots of things not to like about it's management over the last 25 years. However, NOTHING they could have done would have had much effect on slowing the conversion to digital and loss of film sales - especially in the consumer marketplace. 25 years ago, who could have imagined the quality of the digital cameras in our cel phones.
Actually, the entire formula for P30, at least at one time anyway, IS probably on those two pages. I've been doing some lunchtime analysis on that image and you can see through the paper on the right page that there is another formula on the next page.
See, besides the list of ingredients, we are given parameters for ripening and digestion. Also coating weight and all the addenda as well as the base and the types of gelatin. However, it is all in Italian and then in Ferrania lingo, just like any company does.
Many of the ingredients are specified as "Solution 42" and "Sol 13". What are these magical solutions? Well, we don't know. Most likely they were stock Ferrania solutions made in their chemical plant and then supplied to the emulsion department. We don't know what's in them. We can make some intelligent guesses and maybe you would get something like P30 or, maybe not. Maybe it would work well or it might be crap. Maybe the FILM Ferrania guys know what all these solutions were, or maybe they are lost to time. We, on the outside, do not know.
Then there is the un-spoken knowledge that Guido, Vincenzo and Carlo applied in the emulsion room when they actually poured the ingredients in the kettle. Is the kettle still around, because that will matter. Is has certain heating and cooling profiles and what it's made of might even make a difference. And what about Guido, Vincenzo and Carlo? Are any of them still around or are they all making P30 for the angels?
In no way do I want to over-complicate basic emulsion making but to make a repeatable, quality emulsion "just like" P30, or Plus-X, or Neopan or Verichrome Pan or HP3, you cannot just dump ingredients in the pot, mix it up, slather it on some PET or acetate and get the same thing. It just isn't quite that simple.
To give a different example, I would kill for a batch of my grandmother's chocolate chip cookies, but she is long gone. I can, and have, had my daughter - a professionally trained chef who knows what she is doing - make the cookies off the very same recipe on the very same piece of paper. (Yes, I have it archived!) But here's the thing: while they are very good, they aren't even close to the same thing.
Actually, there are lot's of analogies between making emulsions and film and baking from scratch.
MattKing
Moderator
The difference was probably due to, inter alia, your grandmother's cookie sheet.
Or even, to continue the analogy of before, the quality and availability of flour back then (whenever 'back then' was) compared to now. I read something rather recently about the different species of wheat that are grown now, almost 90% in Aus are from species that were either developed here or imported recently, nothing much is the same as what was grown 100 years ago.
I've even heard about two Whiskey distilleries in Scotland. Across the road from each other. Same water, same grains, same peat, barrels from the same place, same everything. Different shaped distilling kettles. Totally different tastes.
At least with chemicals, AgNO3 is AgNO3, except that still the 0.1% worth of impurities may be different to what they used to be, depending on how they process/transport/store it. Once that gets precipitated into an emulsion, that's where all the screwy differences kick in...
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Back then was the 1960's and 1970's. And I think we have the cookie sheet but I might be wrong about that one.
Not quite, though, Dr. The exact pAg / vAg and exact pH of the kettle will make a difference in the crystal habit as will the temperature profile of the precipitation vessel and speed of agitation. Sure if you conbine AgNO3 and KBr/KI, you WILL get a Silver BromoIodide, but the crystal shape won't necessarily be exactly the same and that might be important. Almost more than anything else the precipitation step is going to determine the characteristics of the emulsion.
And then they didn't tell us one of the most important things: is this P30 a single or double-jet emulsion?
Not quite, though, Dr. The exact pAg / vAg and exact pH of the kettle will make a difference in the crystal habit as will the temperature profile of the precipitation vessel and speed of agitation. Sure if you conbine AgNO3 and KBr/KI, you WILL get a Silver BromoIodide, but the crystal shape won't necessarily be exactly the same and that might be important. Almost more than anything else the precipitation step is going to determine the characteristics of the emulsion.
And then they didn't tell us one of the most important things: is this P30 a single or double-jet emulsion?
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Yes i agree, the good news is that P30 was still made at least well into the 1970's from reading expiry dates on some old P30 film boxes on ebay etc.
Im pretty sure it was made until the 1980's possibly later, i would be interested to know how long it was made for if anyone can shed some light on this.
Your right there is lots of variables, and im sure that there are employees who are still alive who made this film.
They have all the documentation in their archives and im sure that they will know what all these "solutions" are, of course its going to be harder for them to reproduce films that have not been made for some time, so its logical for them to restart production of films such as Solaris and Scotchchrome that only stopped production in the last decade.
There shouldnt be any issues with chemistry or banned substances in such films such as solaris which finished only 5 years ago.
Who knows what will happen with P30, they are indicating very subtlety with caution that they would like to reintroduce it.
I dont shoot B&W so it doesnt bother me if they dont, but i like choice and i hope they do offer a range of films for people to choose, even if its one B&W film on offer i would not complain.
BTW, ive dug up some old family photos, some of them printed on ferrania paper and found the odd negative shot on Ferrania, which i expect is P30, i cant complain about the photo quality at all, and these photos would have to be at least 60 years old, some are even alot older, so Ferrania must have had a reasonable world wide reputation at the time since these photos were taken here in New Zealand.
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What if P30 was one of the emulsion components of the color film being formulated now? You know, most color films use up to 9 emulsions and often start with a B&W emulsion with the same speed as needed in the color product.
PE
PE
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What if P30 was one of the emulsion components of the color film being formulated now? You know, most color films use up to 9 emulsions and often start with a B&W emulsion with the same speed as needed in the color product.
PE
Yes, well thats quite true, all modern colour films essentially are made of 3 or more coatings which are basically B&W emulsions that are sensitized to different colour bands with a colour coupler added that forms a dye on each layer when processed.
Could very well be some chemicals that are shared thats for sure.
that would cut a LOT of time and effort off the project of restoring it as a product how would it not?
of course, the colour layers DO have different sensitizing dyes as you sort of want B&W to respond to all colours and the colour leyers to only respond to the right colour. And B&W does not need any colour couplers. I suppose you could take the green layer, and add more dyes to get it to respond to all colours and drop the colour couplers and have a good start on a B&W film.
The guys in the white coats with "3M" scratched out may have some insite as to what the current colour layers were derived from and how they have changed.
P30 was apparently a 1930's emulsion, something like Double-X or Forte's based on a pre-war verson of tri-x. The only ferrania B&W camera film film I ever encountered was P33 AKA Dynapan. I must have MILES of 16mm B&W release prints on ferrania stock in my film collecton.however.
They could have done what Fujifilm did, which is divest out of photography entirely. That would have saved the company and the retirees. Kodak did the opposite, selling off every asset they could. Absolute lunacy!
Did you see the recent Fujifilm news about Ebola? Apparently they have developed a drug that is an effective treatment for Ebola and just this week bought a US pharmaceutical company to help increase their manufacturing ability of this drug. THAT is divesting away from photography!
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Interesting also that the original Ferrania technologies have also gone into pharmaceuticals, obviously there is a market for it and the chemical plant obviously can be adapted to suit. Ferrania are also producing solar panels.
If Kodak had the foresight, they could have made major investments in adapting for a smaller film market, while at the same time making profit in other areas.
Last chance to get in if you were thinking about doing it. 96 minutes to go...
Ken
Ken
Funded, just like that.
In fact, 28.968% overfunded, just like that.
Ken
In fact, 28.968% overfunded, just like that.
Ken
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Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Not another Kodak!
Ferrania are the new Ilford (we hope)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
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You mean the "Colour" Ilford! lol
But yeah, i was implying that they would be the leaders in film technology like kodak, hence replacing them and keeping film alive with solid innovation etc.
Exactly. So we want Kodak's Chemists and Chemical Engineers from 1890 - 1990, and Harman Ilford's management, marketing, direction, and customer support / social media interaction from 2005-2014
Exactly. So we want Kodak's Chemists and Chemical Engineers from 1890 - 1990, and Harman Ilford's management, marketing, direction, and customer support / social media interaction from 2005-2014
AND Kodachrome...
(Note three tongues above!)
Ken
Exactly. So we want Kodak's Chemists and Chemical Engineers from 1890 - 1990, and Harman Ilford's management, marketing, direction, and customer support / social media interaction from 2005-2014
and last but not least: analogue customers from 2015 - 2067
With FILM Ferrania around, if they continue to behave like a Color Ilford, we won't have to chain PE in the barn to make color film to feed our cameras. Won't he be disappointed!
AND Kodachrome...
(Note three tongues above!)
Lets see, 3M used to sell Dynachrome back in the 1960s I even used a roll of it back then for a high school project in a Kodak 126 Ektagraphic slide maker kit. I understand that chemically Dynachrome and Illford chrome were also based on the Kodachrome principles
Seriously, having someone interested in working on a higher speed slide stock is GREAT! Almost all film above 400 has faded due to the poor keeping qualities of High speed film. (Delta 3200 excepted) I still remember having great fun wandering around at night with a roll of High Speed EKTAPRESS film. if the 800-3200 stock comes out it may inspire someone to rerelease a 3200 C-41 film also.
B&H Photo has re-rolled 620 in kodak and I think fuji color film. If you want fresh.
With FILM Ferrania around, if they continue to behave like a Color Ilford, we won't have to chain PE in the barn to make color film to feed our cameras. Won't he be disappointed!
Except for kodachrome, we still need him for that
:devil:
PS viva FILMferrania! They will save me when fuji and kodak stops making color sheet film!
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