Film from Italy -- Ferrania starting production 2014

[Ken Nadvornick]

I agree that it's pretty darn close to a zero-sum game right now. Perhaps a little modest expansion as the baby boomers keep retiring and then try to recapture some youthful experiences they fondly remember. But after that as they begin to die off, who knows?

So again I say it comes down to the peace of mind that an explicit promise of longevity creates. What is the official title of Ferrania's KS project?

100 More Years of Analog Film

Don't think for a second that choice of phrase was an accident.

In one of his audio interviews that Dave Bias fellow made mention of Ilford as being the model they wanted to emulate. Harman's single most effective statement during their reemergence from receivership was their intention to never discontinue a single current (at that time) product. And to my knowledge, they haven't.

That perception of stability is one of the biggest contributing factors to their success today. Customers have never needed to wait until tomorrow morning to know if their favorite films and papers were still going to be available for one more day.

And Ferrania was indeed paying attention to that, as were those pledging a quarter million. I'd bet many of those see Film Ferrania as a better long-term gamble than either Kodak or Fuji...

Ken

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

You are all forgetting one thing: most of the money (and consequently most of potential buyers) on the KS project for Film Ferrania didn't came from people in this forum.
In fact their market doesn't "live" here. They haven' bothered coming here, have they?
But, when first announced the resurrection of Ferrania, Nicola went to Flickr and other places.
At the last count FF had about 4500 backers on Kickstarter. I'm asking where are the 70,000 members that this forum supposedly harbours?

It isn't in any case a question of "and/or" even. Most of the world doesn't live by the American dualism/ Manichaeism.
In my case I use mostly colour films, Fuji or re-badge of it. But, I also use Foma, Ilford and Kentmere films. I'm not going to stop using them. But, I will be adding Ferrania to close the gaps Fuji and Kodak left open, i.e. E6 "cheap" film as it was the case of Kodak EBX and Fuji Sensia.
It is not Ilford that is threaten, but Fuji/Kodak as ken says above.
Ilford (Simon) has already said they value competition, but also cooperation between companies.
Film Ferrania isn't about solely competition, but to help and cooperate with others.
See the case of 127 film: they already have 2 companies knocking on their door interested in the production of 127 film.
Croubie is about right.

Ferrania is perhaps looking for a younger costumer base, not the "old farts". These have gone to other pastures.
It is the girls with handbags and boys with cameras around their necks.
On any weekend going around street markets I see more young people using film cameras than middle-aged people like myself. These are a minority.

The thing to remember about Ferrania is that they are a small company looking for a relatively small output. Fuji and Kodak had to cut films when sales of their large volume coatings went bellow a certain threshold. The threshold for Ferrania is much smaller. Certainly not the 329 million rolls a year the previous Ferrania Technology was producing every year.

 

[Nzoomed]

Don't any of you have the fear that with Ferrania getting into the market might be like an extra candidate in an election that splits the vote on one side and makes the other side win by default? Except here what happens is somehow many of us move money we would have spent for Ilford film and buy Ferrania because it's new and exciting. And this takes away just enough business from Ilford that it's gets into trouble, or God forbid, goes out of business? and in the end Ferrania, who's long term survival is still a huge uncertainty, doesn't survive itself? I mean are we this desperate for more film choices?

No, I dont think it will be an issue, it could be a good thing if it forces more competition, it might make kodak and fuji wake up and see that there is a sustainable film market and adjust to fit it.
Anyway, people want choice, there was far more manufactures of film running 20 years ago than there is today, and a far wider range of films availble right up into the 90's than there is today.

Ilford make B&W, Ferrania will only be doing colour to start with, and possibly B&W films such as P30 in the future, it should be noted that all these different films from each manufacturer were all available for some time without any negative effect on each manufacturer.
The only thing that killed film was digital.

I for one, want to shoot many brands, i may want to shoot kodak one day, Fuji the next and soon will be ferrania.
Each film has unique qualities that some photographers may prefer over another brand, but a certian percentage of photographers would like to switch between films depending on what they want to shoot and the desired effects etc.

I doubt that any C41 films from Ferrania will be able to compete that far to take business away from kodak, for a start, Portra and Ektar are pretty much the most advanced C41 films on the market.
Not that there was anything wrong with Solaris, but i think it was a consumer grade film, not really intended for professional photographers.

I dont think Ferrania will affect Fuji's E6 sales either, in fact, the death of Kodak's E6 films is what would have an impact on E6 in general, there was a good percentage of E6 shooters who never shot fuji, less labs processing will only speed up its decline, so the more E6 films available for people to shoot the better, if Fuji pull out of E6 before Ferrania gets established, it could kill it off almost instantly.
Having 3 brands of E6 film on the market is a good thing.

Will Ferrania affect Kodak's motion picture film sales?
Not in the short term, Kodak vision is the only ECN film available AFAIK, how long ago has Ferrania even made such a film? I think i read that 3M pulled out of this part of the market in the early 80's, so they would need serious R&D to get a 35mm motion picture film on the market, Kodak will probably pull out of this market before Ferrania even gets such a film rolled out, but obviously this is a serious incentive for them to produce such a film.

I expect that these guys are not stupid, the founders are big supporters in the cine film market, since they actually film makers themselves and one of them runs a lab, they mean serious business and probably will come out with some new products in the future.

I can tell you right now that they wont be just making one type of colour film, and they did mention that they would like to see P30 come back if possible, so thats not ruling out B&W.

Ferraina will have most of their market for hobby photographers and a great percentage of the lomography market to start with.
I can see them selling lots of 126 and 110 film for people to use in their instamatics and 110 cameras.
They also want to package films in other obsolete vintage formats such as 127 etc, this will really help those who want to shoot film in their vintage cameras, and i can see a whole new market in this area.

Im sure Ferrania will probably heavily invest in R&D in the coming years for new professional films, but by this time, i doubt Kodak will be running a very sustainable business if at all, unless the market stays at a stable level as it is today. I hope they sell their entire film business and equipment to Alaris or some group of entrepreneurs if this ever happened. Pretty ironic that Kodak invented the technology that has killed their film business!

 

[ambaker]

oh, never mind then. Too bad we weren't so interested earlier when sales could not support such products.

Earlier, many thought that this (the current situation) could never happen. So many cameras, so much film, digital so immature, the film industry would always be there.

At least some are trying now... Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. At least we tried.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

At least we tried? Tried what? This isn't a resurrection of some beloved old process. Kodak discontinued e-6 only 18 months or so ago. Mostly because few were buying any...

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

At least we tried? Tried what? This isn't a resurrection of some beloved old process. Kodak discontinued e-6 only 18 months or so ago.

Mostly because few were buying any...

...at the enormous levels of minimum production required by Kodak to keep Kodak's machines running. I'm sorry, but there's no way I could use a master-roll-a-month of Kodak's E-6 film. But that doesn't mean I wanted Kodak's E-6 to go extinct either. Or Fuji's.

What we all needed back then was the happy medium that Kodak and Fuji could not provide. (Nor in EK's case were much interested in providing, according to Perez.) Film Ferrania promises to try to deliver that correctly-sized happy medium. And thus keep a viable E-6 film available over the long-term.

They apparently propose to do this by physically reworking their own previously gargantuan factory and scaling it down to a more sane level for today's market demand. This is exactly what is needed, but Kodak had no interest in doing. And it's exactly what this KS project was designed to help accommodate.

If—and it's still a very BIG if—they can successfully do this, then that's the way to keep a market-viable E-6 film available for us all. The alternative is to allow Fuji to suddenly announce one day soon that they too are done with E-6 film.

Then what?

Ken

 

[PKM-25]

Don't any of you have the fear that with Ferrania getting into the market might be like an extra candidate in an election that splits the vote on one side and makes the other side win by default? Except here what happens is somehow many of us move money we would have spent for Ilford film and buy Ferrania because it's new and exciting. And this takes away just enough business from Ilford that it's gets into trouble, or God forbid, goes out of business? and in the end Ferrania, who's long term survival is still a huge uncertainty, doesn't survive itself? I mean are we this desperate for more film choices?

I didn't donate to the kickstarter and will wait quite awhile to see how the quality of this film is before I allow my self to turn my attention away from Kodak, Fuji or Ilford even for a moment. I think it is great they are giving this a shot but I am going to continue to use the products I know at least for now, I can depend on.

I'm a photographer first, I don't need a chocolate box full of film shaped candy, just a handful of outstanding products with exceptional quality control. If film Ferrania comes up with a much better product than what I currently use, they get my business. If they don't....then they dont, it's that simple, and it's the way I do business.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Film Ferrania's larger mandate is to downsize a major mothballed film factory and return to viable production an E-6 transparency film. That's what the KS project is all about. I don't understand how this goal can be considered misguided or wrong by so many. Of all places on earth I would have thought APUG to be the one place where film photographers would understand and support with such an effort.

I'm not exactly sure what my continued product loyalty to Kodak's world-class E-6 films is supposed to be buying me. What is it about the word "extinct" that continues not to register with people?

And the Fuji E-6 box of chocolates we are currently picking from by now has lots and lots of empty brown paper cups, but only two candies remaining. And one of those is that damn chocolate-covered cherry guy that nobody likes.



Ken

 

[PKM-25]

I don't understand how this goal can be considered misguided or wrong by so many. Of all places on earth I would have thought APUG to be the one place where film photographers would understand and support with such an effort.

Like a lot of threads on here anymore, I have been watching this at a distance and don't get the feeling of the above at all. For the record, color film is just not my product anymore, I use a teeny-tiny bit of it, maybe 20 rolls per year? But the products I do use a lot of I absolutely count on, black and white.

I think what they are doing is great for those who want to use E6 well into the future, they have my thumbs up support but that is the most I can really offer them, you know?

 

[Xmas]

...at the enormous levels of minimum production required by Kodak to keep Kodak's machines running. I'm sorry, but there's no way I could use a master-roll-a-month of Kodak's E-6 film. But that doesn't mean I wanted Kodak's E-6 to go extinct either. Or Fuji's.

What we all needed back then was the happy medium that Kodak and Fuji could not provide. (Nor in EK's case were much interested in providing, according to Perez.) Film Ferrania promises to try to deliver that correctly-sized happy medium. And thus keep a viable E-6 film available over the long-term.

They apparently propose to do this by physically reworking their own previously gargantuan factory and scaling it down to a more sane level for today's market demand. This is exactly what is needed, but Kodak had no interest in doing. And it's exactly what this KS project was designed to help accommodate.

If—and it's still a very BIG if—they can successfully do this, then that's the way to keep a market-viable E-6 film available for us all. The alternative is to allow Fuji to suddenly announce one day soon that they too are done with E-6 film.

Then what?

Ken

Easy question answer Ken buys DSLR?

 

[Xmas]

Like a lot of threads on here anymore, I have been watching this at a distance and don't get the feeling of the above at all. For the record, color film is just not my product anymore, I use a teeny-tiny bit of it, maybe 20 rolls per year? But the products I do use a lot of I absolutely count on, black and white.

I think what they are doing is great for those who want to use E6 well into the future, they have my thumbs up support but that is the most I can really offer them, you know?

They made the mono on the same machines...
I can still buy 120 plusx if I run out Sunday afternoon.
Ok I could last Sunday at 18:00 local DST.

 

[Nzoomed]

...at the enormous levels of minimum production required by Kodak to keep Kodak's machines running. I'm sorry, but there's no way I could use a master-roll-a-month of Kodak's E-6 film. But that doesn't mean I wanted Kodak's E-6 to go extinct either. Or Fuji's.

What we all needed back then was the happy medium that Kodak and Fuji could not provide. (Nor in EK's case were much interested in providing, according to Perez.) Film Ferrania promises to try to deliver that correctly-sized happy medium. And thus keep a viable E-6 film available over the long-term.

They apparently propose to do this by physically reworking their own previously gargantuan factory and scaling it down to a more sane level for today's market demand. This is exactly what is needed, but Kodak had no interest in doing. And it's exactly what this KS project was designed to help accommodate.

If—and it's still a very BIG if—they can successfully do this, then that's the way to keep a market-viable E-6 film available for us all. The alternative is to allow Fuji to suddenly announce one day soon that they too are done with E-6 film.

Then what?

Ken

Exactly what i was going to say.
There was still a market for E6, just not enough to warrant Kodak producing a large run of it, although I do find it odd that they could not just make a run and keep the master roll in cold storage and cut it down as they see fit, i believe that Kodak did this with their stock of Kodachrome, but perhaps even making a large run and the cost of storing it makes it uneconomical?

Anyway, Kodak supposedly re-tooled their factory to make smaller amounts more economical, but i understand thats even too large scale at present. Only C41 and ECN2 films are being made there now, so is alot easier for them to make those films since they all share very similar chemistry.
I expect that Film Ferrania want to make their new factory to a slightly smaller scale than what kodak currently is.

I dont know how different the design of the machinery is to what Kodak is using, but their engineers seem pretty confident that they can make it work, so fingers crossed that it all works out. I can trust these guys more than Kodak anyway, they are dedicated to film production unlike Kodak have film in their best interest, so they are putting the consumer first.

As they say, people have the power. They will achieve what most will consider the impossible.

I will buy my film from those that want to produce the stuff that the consumer demands, Kodak doesnt offer me anything that i want, so naturally im going to support Film Ferrania, If Kodak make E6 again, then obviously i would buy it, but it will have to be a miracle for Kodak to ever do such a thing.

 

[TheToadMen]

oh, never mind then. Too bad we weren't so interested earlier when sales could not support such products.

"Oh, is that restaurant closed down, they didn't make it? What a pity, I still wanted to go there ... sometimes."

 

[pdeeh]

You are all forgetting one thing: most of the money (and consequently most of potential buyers) on the KS project for Film Ferrania didn't came from people in this forum.
In fact their market doesn't "live" here. They haven' bothered coming here, have they?
But, when first announced the resurrection of Ferrania, Nicola went to Flickr and other places.

.

A good point well made, as they say

It is the girls with handbags and boys with cameras around their necks.

And let us not forget the boys with handbags and girls with cameras round their necks.

 

[Colonel Blimp]

I hope Ferrania is successful. I shoot slide film and would love to see more products on the shelves. In any case this is a strange (and fascinating) world. We in APUG and in other film forums and communities seem to invest more time thinking about scenarios, markets, business models, etc. than some of the companies producing the films we buy. 'Active' consumers need 'active' companies and viceversa. So I guess there is no way 'passive' companies (i.e. Kodak) are able to survive unless they change the way they work, even if they produce the most wonderful products.

 

[rbultman]

"Since 2009, film sales have steadily increased."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjtphPVchJI

See the slide at 5:46.

I am teaching my kids to use film cameras. They both have their own K1000's.

After not mentioning film to a coworker, she told me she was thinking of buying a film camera and putting a darkroom in her basement. I was blown away. I found an example Nikon F100 system on ebay that she might be interested in. She bought it.

Simple population growth suggests that the market will not continue to shrink.

Film is not a danger to the digital camera industry, cell phones are. I very rarely use my DSLR anymore, only when I need a color photo of something and I need it right now and it needs to be reasonably color accurate. Otherwise the cell phone suffices for snapshots like capturing the whiteboard scribblings after a meeting. I shot 7 rolls of 220 and 3 rolls of 35mm TriX on my vacation. The DSLR stayed home. The cell phone did its job navigating.

Supporting Ferrania may feel like giving money to a charity. I whine that the cost of 8x10 film is too high so I have not bought an 8x10 camera. I spent $70 on 4 rolls of film that may suck. I don't shoot slide film. Logical, right?

I'm 49, I've been back to shooting film for the last 3 years after 4 digital years, I don't like the whole lomo light leak scene, and I prefer to wear my cameras over my shoulder, not around my neck. The straps chafe too much.

I suspect I am not the only person like this, I'm just not that special.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

A good point well made, as they say



And let us not forget the boys with handbags and girls with cameras round their necks.

Lol! Well said!
Another weekend I met 2 girls on the flower market with cameras around their necks. One had an Exa Ib in very nice condition and was using it as it meant to be.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

I'm 49, I've been back to shooting film for the last 3 years after 4 digital years, I don't like the whole lomo light leak scene, and I prefer to wear my cameras over my shoulder, not around my neck. The straps chafe too much.

Thanks for the video reminder and the nice story.
I'm 43, a bit younger and have been shooting 35mm on and off for 30 years. I also don't like the lomo light leak scene, but I reckon it can be fun in small quantities. I prefer to wear my camera around the neck ready to be used. Over my shoulder is a bag with extra lens, film and cameras. Increasingly I'm using my cameras with a short hand strap always on my hand and no longer over my neck and also lighter cameras. Thanks to Xmas for the positive influence in street photography.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...the Fuji E-6 box of chocolates we are currently picking from by now has lots and lots of empty brown paper cups, but only two candies remaining. And one of those is that damn chocolate-covered cherry guy that nobody likes...

I love those chocolate-covered cherries. Always despised Fuji Velveeta.

...Anyway, Kodak supposedly re-tooled their factory to make smaller amounts more economical, but i understand thats even too large scale at present. Only C41 and ECN2 films are being made there now, so is alot easier for them to make those films since they all share very similar chemistry...

Incorrect. You've left out 100TMX, 400TMY-2, 320TXP and 400TX, all black and white films.

"Since 2009, film sales have steadily increased."...Supporting Ferrania may feel like giving money to a charity. I whine that the cost of 8x10 film is too high so I have not bought an 8x10 camera...I don't shoot slide film...

Worldwide, while film sales might not be declining, E6 sure isn't the reason. I wish Ferrania good luck, but suspect that those who supported its Kickstarter campaign were indeed giving money to a charity. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

 

[railwayman3]

I wish them the best (as long as they don't make B&W products). But I find it hard to believe $250,000 goes very far at all when it comes to getting such a project going.

The $250,000 is part for the purchase of the equipment, and a smaller part for the coating and packing of the "rewards". I suggest that the must have other sources of outside finance and backing for the project, as they have been working on it for many months. Presumably they will have needed to pay for wages, materials and expenses so far.

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

So $35 for two rolls of film as part of this Kickstarter. Just how much per roll can they sell this and perhaps other films later? Better be much cheaper, like 60% or more cheaper I'd think. I question the business model that can work and make money.

 

[railwayman3]

So $35 for two rolls of film as part of this Kickstarter. Just how much per roll can they sell this and perhaps other films later? Better be much cheaper, like 60% or more cheaper I'd think. I question the business model that can work and make money.

The Kickstarter model is that you contribute funds to enable a project, any "rewards" are incidental. So, in this case you are not "buying film" at all, not at $35 or any other price. There is a maximum "reward" for 10 films for a substantial contribution....you can't "buy" any more even if you pledged $35,000! Their eventual business model is an entirely separate, and I am sure, very different, matter.

 

[MattKing]

There was still a market for E6, just not enough to warrant Kodak producing a large run of it, although I do find it odd that they could not just make a run and keep the master roll in cold storage and cut it down as they see fit, i believe that Kodak did this with their stock of Kodachrome, but perhaps even making a large run and the cost of storing it makes it uneconomical?

Just musing on this, but I wonder if Kodachrome in master roll format stored better than E6 film would.

As many of the colour components were added to Kodachrome at the time of development, rather than at the time of film manufacture, it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

The Kickstarter model is that you contribute funds to enable a project, any "rewards" are incidental. So, in this case you are not "buying film" at all, not at $35 or any other price. There is a maximum "reward" for 10 films for a substantial contribution....you can't "buy" any more even if you pledged $35,000! Their eventual business model is an entirely separate, and I am sure, very different, matter.

For some reason there continues to be a general misunderstanding of this point.

I'm in at the $140 level. How much film I may receive as a one-time "reward" is irrelevant to me, although I will certainly be excited to play with it. Ultimately, however, when I clicked on Submit I knew full well that my $140 was at high risk. I clicked anyway.

Why?

Because I don't have a mothballed film factory at my disposal. I don't have a town full of ex-employees with the skill sets to run that factory. I don't have either the business or technical skills to do much with them even if I did. And sooner than later here I also won't have any remaining E-6 film at all. And I can't make it myself in a basement. Or a barn.

But others do have those things at their disposal. So I clicked. It's the ONLY thing I can personally do. Begging KA to place an E-6 order with EK is not an option. Nor is begging Fuji to stop discontinuing.

But handing our Italian friends $140 and asking them to do the best they can with it IS an option. No unrealistic starry-eyed expectations here. I will likely never see a reintroduction of commercial E-6 film again. Color film itself may well go entirely extinct. And my $140 with it.

But there is also a non-trivial chance they might be able to pull it off.

That is the nature of risk/reward. You puts yer money on da' table, and da' man spins da' wheel. Sometimes you win. Most times you don't. It's pretty simple, really.

Just don't put down more than you can afford to lose...

Ken

 

[Xmas]

I love those chocolate-covered cherries. Always despised Fuji Velveeta.

Incorrect. You've left out 100TMX, 400TMY-2, 320TXP and 400TX, all black and white films.

Worldwide, while film sales might not be declining, E6 sure isn't the reason. I wish Ferrania good luck, but suspect that those who supported its Kickstarter campaign were indeed giving money to a charity. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

Kodak's accounts show legacy sales declining (ie inkjet and film) are we really sure film is not in steep decline?

Kodak and Fuji are winnowing selection but I can still buy 120 plusx on Sundays, BW400CN is in pharmacy 100m away(110 yards), Fotokemia died, Ferranni stopped...

C41 labs disappearing...

Am I on planet B?